Re: An interesting essay for evangelicals

From: jdac (
Date: Thu Jan 23 2003 - 19:16:11 EST

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    Your first argument to me seems a classic example of straw clutching. From the
    patristic period onwards these verses have been seen to clearly condemn homosexual
    behaviour, not only homosexual prostitution. The church fathers were in a much
    better position to understand what these verses mean than we, they were after all
    immersed in the same language and culture. The only reason to for think otherwise
    is to try an avoid some conflict with the morality of our current age and the
    apologists for it.

    With respect to your second argument I agree. homosexuality is condemned along with
    many other things some of which all of us are guilty. We sinners need to recognise
    our own need for grace and be ready to forgive others. But this should not mean we
    thereby condone sin in others any more than it should be reason to condone it in our


    Robert Schneider wrote:

    > Regarding Moorad's citation of 1 Cor. 6:9-10, below:
    > In my previous note I commented on 1 Cor. 6:9-10, and realize now that I
    > should have elaborated on the meaning of the Greek word "arsenokotais." In
    > the translation Moorad quotes below, "arsenokotais" is translated
    > "homosexuals." Yet, there is good evidence from the original texts that the
    > Greek word does not convey the generic notion of a homosexual, but refers to
    > a person who engages in male prostitution. The problem with the translation
    > "homosexual" is that it imposes our modern understanding upon an ancient
    > word and turns it into a generic rather than the specific term this rare
    > Greek word appears to convey. The translation of "makaroi" as "effeminate"
    > may also be misleading since the term in our culture is popularly used to
    > refer to gay persons, despite the fact that there is plenty of evidence that
    > men who display body language interpreted as efffeminate (and women who
    > display such evidence as "masculate") may well be and often are heterosexual
    > (while many tough-looking, handsome, heterosexually-looking men are gay).
    > The Greek word probably meant something else to Paul, though it is not
    > entirely clear to me what. It must have a negative connotation given the
    > other terms it is lumped with. I agree with Moorad that Paul has cast his
    > net widely to give examples of those who are unrighteous, which may put all
    > of us under judgment, though perhaps Paul is speaking of persons who
    > behavior is habitually unrighteous, since another translation (NRSV) of this
    > Greek word "adikoi" is "wrongdoers." At any rate Paul continues (v. 11,
    > NRSV), "And this is what some of you [NB: not all] used to be. But you were
    > washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord
    > Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." So, we believers have
    > justification and the power of the Spirit to aid us in falling into, or
    > reverting to, habitual wrongdoing of whatever specific kind.
    > Grace and peace,
    > Bob
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <>
    > To: "John Burgeson" <>; <>
    > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 1:12 PM
    > Subject: RE: An interesting essay for evangelicals
    > > First, I was not shouting. I just copied the verses from the Internet and
    > did not bother to rewrite what I had copied. I have given much thought to
    > the issue Christianity/homosexuality. You have a gut feeling that it is not
    > a choice to become a homosexual; I have the opposite gut feeling. I read a
    > book sometime ago that said that homosexuality is a choice but it is rooted
    > in the nurturing of a boy before his third birthday. “Or do you not know
    > that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be
    > deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
    > effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards,
    > nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Cor.
    > 6:9-10. This speaks to all of us! Moorad
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: John Burgeson []
    > > Sent: Thu 1/23/2003 12:35 PM
    > > To: Alexanian, Moorad;
    > > Cc:
    > > Subject: RE: An interesting essay for evangelicals
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Moorad, instead of accepting my challenge to you to do some tough studying
    > > (yes -- it is tough -- I came to my present position from yours only after
    > > burning a lot of midnight oil, reading both sides of the issue, etc.) you
    > > instead tossed off the following:
    > >
    > > "I believe Jesus does address the issue of homosexuality in Mark 10:6-8
    > > “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR
    > > BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.” Jesus
    > > certainly defines what Christian marriage is. So much for homosexual
    > > marriages!"
    > >
    > > No need to shout. Jesus likely did not when he said that.
    > >
    > > To say "Jesus defined what Christian marriage is" from those verses is
    > quite
    > > a stretch. The fundementalist "proof text" approach almost never works,
    > > except perhaps to a biblical literalist.
    > >
    > > I accept that heterosexual marriages are both a norm and a desired goal.
    > > What I do not accept (because scripture does not ask me to accept) is that
    > > homosexual unions are necessarily a sin.
    > >
    > > John W. Burgeson (Burgy)
    > >
    > >

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