From: Jim Eisele (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sat Dec 21 2002 - 14:34:07 EST
Thanks for a conversational response, Jan :-)
>Jim, I did have long discussions with you before, (I believe in the spring
>or early summer, or even before that) and expected that you would at least
>say more than just what you said in your reply to George. Again, it shows
>the shortcomings of e-mail discussions. Sorry, if I missed your point. I
>am, however, very sensitive to sentences like you used, about God. Even if
>George said literally what you implied, I do not believe that God created
>men to sin in order to be able to send His Son.
Actually, I was implying a lot. To spell it out more, the doctrine
of all men are sinners seems absolutely ludicrous to me, UNLESS you
say something like "Adam's sin blew it for all mankind." I would
still sharply disagree here, but would probably not voice these
disagreements sharply on this list. The argument that "all men are
sinners regardless of Adam" again, seems ludicrous, and very unbiblical.
Paul believed Adam was human #1, and derived his theology from it.
If you just say, well, all humans are sinners, that begs the question
of responsibility. Are you really claiming all (10 billion?) humans who
ever lived deserve eternal torment because each and every one of them
"chose" to rebel against God? You'd think at least one would please
God !?! And if not, wouldn't the creator be somewhat suspect? Sorry
if I am misunderstanding something here, but maybe this clarifies what
I was getting at.
>I believe, that the Bible tells me that; "In Adam all have sinned" "All"
>includes me and all other human beings. I may have ways of reading the
>Bible, that not everyone agrees with, but I do believe that all of us sin,
>and have to ask God to be forgiven every day. We did indeed "inherit" the
>tendency to sin.
That must be awful to live with (again, mostly I'm keeping my mouth shut
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