Re: George's reply to Howard

From: Jan de Koning (
Date: Sat Dec 07 2002 - 15:25:55 EST

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    At 09:02 AM 07/12/2002 +0000, Jim Eisele wrote:
    Precedence: bulk

    >Terry, you've left the science out of your religion. That leaves you
    >with dogma. Not very attractive. Science says human suffering is a
    >result of imperfect evolution. You say that "God made us to suffer"
    >(unless you've changed your stance to believe in a literal Adam, Eve,
    >the garden and talking snake). I assume that you consider yourself
    >an ethical person. How do you justify promoting this hateful,
    >judgmental God? Note: you can't say "because the Bible says so"
    >because you believe in evolution and the Bible clearly does not.

    Let Terry speak for himself.
    My reaction would be:
    It is impossible to leave science out of religion, because all we do and
    are is determined by our relation to God, that is our religion. Thus
    whether we are involved with mathematics or theology, in everything we have
    to serve God. If "Science" says that "God made us suffer." than Science is
    something we should stay away from, because it is definitely
    un-scriptural. We, mankind, are suffering because of our, mankind's, fall
    in sin, ever since Adam, or the beginning of mankind, if you so prefer.

    Another difficulty is, that Science is very poorly defined
    usually. Especially in the borderline sciences, like ethics. In the
    Philosophy of the Cosmonic Idea the different areas of study are listed in
    the following order: Numerical, Spatial, Kinematic, Physical, Biotic,
    Sensitive or Psychic, Logical, Historical, Lingual, Social, Economic,
    Aesthetic, Juridical, Moral, Pistic. There may be some minor differences
    of the proper order, but in general it is intended that things whose
    highest being would be in a certain area, need all the earlier areas for a
    full deployment of their "abilities." None of these areas are "Arts" even
    if in Anglo-Saxon countries they are called that. All these areas describe
    a sector of creation, and are thus subject to God's laws. True Man
    destroyed a lot of this paradisacal (is this a word?) relations. All these
    areas are used in human life, where they are bound together. The centre of
    life in a human "decides" in which direction his life is directed. That
    affects all man's activities. If it is directed towards God, through Jesus
    Christ (conversion), all his activities in every area should be directed
    towards God.

    If the "conversion" is left out all human activities are directed away
    (thus against) God. Even then I do not dare to say that "God made us
    suffer." If we suffer, it is because of human sin. Only at the end of our
    life (when we are out of time) we will see clearly how and where we were
    sinning. In all these 15 spheres God gave laws, which we have to search
    and obey. So talking about suffering anywhere (in Science too) is caused
    by men. Read Gen.3:17 vv. No matter how you want to explain Gen.1-11 it
    says clearly that bad things are caused by human disobedience.

    Jan de Koning

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