From: Robert Schneider (email@example.com)
Date: Mon Oct 28 2002 - 11:28:18 EST
To support Michael's statement, I recommend that Ian read an article
familiar to many of us on this list: "Radioactive Dating: A Christian
Perspective," by Dr. Roger Wiens, recently revised, which provides a
thorough review of the forty some radioactive dating techniques, which, as
Wiens points out, pretty much agree with one another. The article can be
accessed directly from the home page of the ASA (www.asa3.org) or from
Dates for the age of the earth are so well established by these well-tested
techniques that it would take an enormous amount of contrary evidence to
even raise questions about the 4.5/4.6 byr dates. I have yet to see any
evidence put forth by the YEC group that would do so in the scientific
community. Gentry's halides research has not been duplicated, and even if
it were solidly established, it is but one anomaly; as Aristotle said, "One
swallow doesn't make a summer."
As for the age of the universe, estimates depend to some extent on what
figure for the Hubble constant one comes up with and there has been some
disagreement over that. But there is no disagreement about the constancy of
the speed of light in the scientific community, and any assertions to the
contrary that I have read are ad hoc hypotheses unsupported by any valid
scientific evidence. I guess one could say that the 12 byr. figure recently
put forth is "revised downward" from the 15 byr. commonly used as an
estimate of the age of the universe, but that was done, I recall, on the
basis of a new calculation of the Hubble constant.
I hesitated to write this note, as my meditations on creation are not
being posted for purposes of discussion, though I do not object to anyone
raising questions or making comments. I do thank those who have been
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Roberts" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: "Hassell, Ian C." <email@example.com>; <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Celebrating Creation.II
> Dates for the age of the universe and geological age dates have NOTHING to
> do with evolution and are worked out from straight physics. As Brent
> Dalrymple (leading US radiometric age dater)more or less said
> just have to put up with whatever dates geochronologists give them. If
> are too much or too little then tough.
> The age of 4.5 b.y. has stayed constant since 1946 which is remarkable.
> Remember the first radiometric age date was 1907 when they estimated the
> of the earth at 1.8 by. Before that in c1880s Kelvin estimated 24 my and
> 1860 both Darwin and the Revd Samuel Haughton, an anti-evolutionary
> geologists guessed at 1.8 by.
> Before that there was lots of variation, but geologists since 1750 were
> suggesting a very long time at least 10s of thousands if not millions.
> Evolution has nothing to do with the age of the earth and anyone who says
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hassell, Ian C." <email@example.com>
> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 7:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Celebrating Creation.II
> > Just out of curiosity, what does "...intricate web of life four billion
> > years old..." have to do with the entirety of your meditation? Is your
> > opinion of the age of the earth significant to the wisdom of God or the
> > beauty of His creation? Regardless of what brand of evolutionist one
> > the dates of the origin of the earth are constantly moving (backwards,
> > course). This, by the way, is a beautifully written meditation which I
> > really enjoyed - especially the Ps 148 paragraph.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Schneider [mailto:email@example.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: firstname.lastname@example.org; Walter Hicks
> > Subject: Celebrating Creation.II
> > Here is the second of my meditations on the Creation.
> > Bob Schneider
> > CELEBRATING CREATION
> > Meditations for the Creation Season
> > Robert J. Schneider
> > St. Luke's Episcopal Church, Boone, NC
> > October 27, 2002
> > II. WISDOM: GOD'S AGENT IN CREATION
> > The Psalmist declares (104:24):
> > O Lord, how manifold are your works!
> > In wisdom you have made them all:
> > The earth is full of your creatures.
> > In these words, this inspired poet sets forth a theme found in many
> > in the Hebrew Scriptures: in wisdom has God brought this marvelous
> > into being. So central to the notion of creation is wisdom that she
> > been personified: she is in Hebrew Hokma, in the Greek texts Sophia.
> > scholars have spoken of her as "the feminine face of God."
> > The Bible describes Wisdom as an expression of God's own
> > God is the source of all wisdom (Prov. 2:8), and wisdom is one of the
> > important of God's gifts to humankind (Prov. 8:11-12). Specifically,
> > 's role in creation is highlighted in key passages. In the book of
> > Wisdom is personified and praised as God's agent and assistant:
> > The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,
> > the first of his acts of long ago.
> > Ages ago I was set up,
> > at the first, before the beginning of the earth..
> > When he established the heavens I was there.,
> > When he marked out the foundation of the earth,
> > then I was beside him, like a master worker;
> > and I was daily his delight,
> > rejoicing before him always.. (8:22-23, 29-30)
> > In the Book of Ecclesiasticus (Apocrypha), Jesus the son of Sirach
> > describes her:
> > I came forth from the mouth of the Most High,
> > And covered the earth like a mist.
> > I dwelt in the highest heavens;
> > And my throne was a pillar of cloud.
> > Alone I compassed the vault of heaven
> > And traversed the depths of the abyss..
> > Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me,
> > And for all the ages I shall not cease to be (Sir.
> > Wisdom alone knows the whole creation intimately. So also
> > declared
> > the author of Job: in the magnificent love song to the creation in Job
> > 38-41, God reminds Job that only God's wisdom knows the creation in its
> > entirety and in all its parts; human knowledge and understanding is
> > Whatever human beings are able to comprehend about the creation, wisdom
> > teaches them, as the apocryphal Book of Wisdom declares (Wis. 7:22).
> > author goes on to name her qualities:
> > There is in her a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique,
> > manifold, subtle.,
> > All-powerful, overseeing all, and penetrating through
> > spirits..
> > For she is a breath of the power of God,
> > and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
> > Therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.
> > for she is a reflection of eternal light,
> > and a spotless mirror of the working of God,
> > and an image of his goodness (7:22-26).
> > Given the marvelous creatures that inhabited the world of
> > ancient Hebrews-the Pleiades and Orion and all the panoply of stars
> > 5:8), the sun like a giant running its course (Ps. 19:5), the many
> > the wilderness (Job 38-41), the snow-capped peak of Mt. Hermon (Sir.
> > the magnificent vista of the Jordan from the heights of Mt. Zion, the
> > awesome desert landscapes, the hills and plains of Canaan flowing with
> > and honey (Exod. 13:5)-it is no wonder that the biblical writers were
> > inspired to praise God's Wisdom, and speak of her in the same
> > language with which they spoke of the Holy One. Through their emphasis
> > the role of divine Wisdom in the creation, the biblical writers imply
> > creation's intrinsic goodness and value and purposefulness.
> > One cannot read the many passages in the Old Testament about
> > creation without realizing that in the visionary poetry of the biblical
> > writers all creatures rejoice in and praise their wise Maker. In
> > the Psalmist eloquently calls upon every element of the creation-sun
> > moon, fire and hail, snow and frost, creeping things and flying fowl,
> > thing that has breath--to praise the Lord. The biblical writers live
> > world whose every creature is alive to the presence of its Creator and
> > rejoices at God's manifestations. "The heavens declare the glory of
> > and the firmament shows his handiwork" (Ps. 19:1). At the coming of
> > Lord, the morning stars sing together (Job 38:7), the mountains skip
> > rams (Ps. 114:4), and the trees of the field clap their hands (Isa.
> > Our vision of the universe is much more expansive than those
> > inspired Israelites: we have even more reason to gaze with admiration
> > the creation that Divine Wisdom has wrought. We can call upon galaxies
> > supernovae, upon the amazing celestial furnaces in which stars are
> > upon the all of the astonishing array of creatures we are bound
> > with in this intricate web of life four billion years old-we can call
> > all this creation to join us in praising our Creator.
> > Readings: Proverbs 8:22-31; Sirach 24:1-7; Wisdom 7:15-8:1; Psalms
> > 148.
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