Re: Celebrating Creation.II

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. (dfsiemensjr@juno.com)
Date: Sat Oct 26 2002 - 19:27:50 EDT

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    This shows that you have some of the language but none of the content of
    Christianity, whether Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant. It is an example
    of the kind of translation I have noted. From the standpoint of biblical
    faith, there is nothing in it to think about.
    Dave

    On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 18:44:36 -0400 "Stuart d Kirkley"
    <stucandu@lycos.com> writes:
    > More food for thought?
    > --
    >
    > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:05
    > D. F. Siemens, Jr. wrote:
    > >Some good, some dubious.
    > >
    > >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:32:41 -0400 "Stuart d Kirkley"
    > ><stucandu@lycos.com> writes:
    > >>
    > >> I'm only positing that there is obviously an intelligent order to
    >
    > >> the
    > >> universe, and that intelligence stems from one source only, which
    > is
    > >>
    > >> mind (for where else could it possibly come from) and that this
    > mind
    > >
    > >The biblical term is Spirit (John 4:24), _pneuma_ rather than
    > _nous_.
    >
    > Well, what would Spirit be without Mind, is Spirit mindless? Is
    > Mind Spiritless? Are the two mutually exclusive? I think not,
    > rather I think they are mutually inclusive and are interchangeable
    > as they complement each other.
    >
    > >> must be supreme and primordial, an intelligent source beyond any
    >
    > >> human reckoning, and that perhaps this is what we come to know as
    >
    > >> being God, the governing intelligence of all creation. The
    > universe
    > >>
    > >> being infinite, it must be a manifestation of God's infinite
    > >> intelligence, and since intelligence is mind, then perhaps the
    > >> universe is infinite mind expressed. And if so, then it is only
    > meet
    > >>
    > >Best information we have is that the universe is finite and
    > unlimited or
    > >unbounded. This means that it is like the earth, limited in area
    > and
    > >volume, but with no possibility that any of us will fall off the
    > edge.
    > >This, of course, springs from Einstein's special theory. His
    > general
    > >theory makes possible a universe too large to see, let alone
    > traverse,
    > >even in principle. But no universe which has a beginning in a Big
    > Bang
    > >can be infinite.
    >
    > Perhaps the universe I'm referring to is the spiritual universe.
    >
    > >> to capitalize Mind to ascribe it as a synonym for God.
    > >
    > >see above. This synonymy comes from Christian Science, Unity and
    > related
    > >"science of mind" dogma. It has no relevance to sound thought.
    >
    > Well, sorry , but I am a Christian Scientist. That fact has been
    > aired on this list several times before. Yes, Christian Science does
    > use Mind as a synonym for God. It also uses Soul, Spirit, Life,
    > Truth and Love as synonyms also, some of which the Bible itself
    > uses quite specifically, so you might have a bit of an argument
    > convincing people that these Bible synonyms are not sound. The
    > others come from inspired inference, ie, the wisdom of God is a
    > manifestation of intelligence. This intelligence has to have a
    > source, or Mind, and the correlation satisfies a lot of questions as
    > to what God is. I don't know much about Unity or 'science of mind'
    > or others such as New Thought, but I do know that they borrow
    > heavily from Christian Science which was discovered and founded well
    > before these other 'offshoots' were developed. Whether or not
    > Christian Science was alone in using this term initially, I'm not
    > sure, but there seemed to be a lot of religions and belief systmes
    > that adopted
    > the term afterwards.
    >
    > >> I thought this tied in well with the excellent sermon on praising
    >
    > >> God's wisdom put forward by Robert Schneider. And wisdom being
    > >> another espression of intelligence, or Mind, certainly one has
    > to
    > >> allow that wisdom comes from above, or a higher source of
    > >> intelligence than our limited human capacities, and perhaps this
    > is
    > >>
    > >The difference is that Schneider is expressing standard Christian
    > >theology, not confusing Spirit with mind or Mind. This means that
    > he does
    > >not intend it as you read it. For their adherents, there are few
    > >similarities between Kantian Idealism and the Pragmatism of James
    > and
    > >Schiller. But I know of a case where much of Kant's view was
    > translated
    > >into a flaming Schillerian Pragmatism. It really upset a devoutly
    > Kantian
    > >professor. I present this as an illustration of how incompatible
    > views
    > >can be intertranslated, though the translation will not be
    > recognized by
    > >one group of partisans.
    >
    > Again, I don't think these terms are mutually exclusive but mutually
    > inclusive, and complement each other to enlarge our understanding of
    > just what Spirit is, or what Mind is, just as the other synonyms I
    > listed above are also inclusive and amplify each others meaning to
    > give a fuller understanding of God and what His qualities and
    > attributes are.
    > >
    > >> why we should feel reverence and praise for God's benevolence and
    >
    > >> lovingkindness as He ( Divine Mind) guides us through wisdom to a
    >
    > >> better sense of being and harmony.
    > >
    > >But the Christian view is that redemption through the
    > substitutionary
    > >atonement is the only way to reconcile fallen human beings with
    > the
    > >thrice holy Father. This is the ultimate lovingkindness of the
    > Triune
    > >God.
    >
    > I don't quite know what this means, I'm not familiar with all the
    > varied forms of Christian worship. For me, atonement is the
    > exemplifacation of man's unity with God, fully expressed in the life
    > of our master, Christ Jesus, who showed us the way to achieve our
    > own atonement and salvation, through following his example in actual
    > life practice.
    > >
    > >> You can accept this or not, and maybe my initial premise went too
    >
    > >> far
    > >> and can be contested through logic, but the concept and idea is
    >
    > >> sound and valid, and for me, carries a lot of weight. I think
    > when
    > >>
    > >> you understand and feel ( which I'm sure you must have) that
    > wisdom
    > >>
    > >> and intelligence come from a place outside of ourselves, as an
    > >> inspiration (as in 'every good gift and every perfect gift is
    > from
    > >>
    > >> above' James1:17), you get an inkling (or even a very strong
    > sense)
    > >>
    > >> of a greater intelligence (a far greater intelligence) which is
    > ever
    > >>
    > >> present and ready to lovingly bestow it's benefits upon you. For
    > me,
    > >>
    > >> it really helps to understand that this intelligence is
    > >> omnipresent
    > >> and omniscient Mind, or God, and the definition, or synonym, is
    > very
    > >>
    > >> apt indeed, to me. That is my personal experience, and I was
    > >> inspired
    > >> by Mr. Scneiders eloquent homily praising God for His benevolent
    >
    > >> wisdom.
    > >>
    > >> Stuart K.
    > >>
    > >I agree that life, continued being, and every good gift has its
    > source in
    > >the One who is Creator and Providence. But I hold that the
    > ultimate
    > >source of understanding of this One is in the incarnate, crucified
    > and
    > >resurrected Son. Further, this underlies Schneider's commendable
    > >meditation. But I see no indication that you understand it within
    > these
    > >commitments.
    > >Dave
    >
    > Well, I can agree with you on this point, except that I don't hold
    > that this ultimate source of understanding was exclusive to one
    > person at a particular point in history, that being Jesus Christ.
    > He certainly best expressed that understanding better than any
    > person who has since, or prior to him, trod the earth. But I think
    > that the ablility to understand the divine is eternally present to
    > everyone and is available to anyone who seeks Truth sincerely and
    > seeks to have that 'same mind that is in Christ Jesus', or to
    > follow wisdom in the true path that it leads to. Perhaps this is the
    > Mind I referred to earlier, remember that mind is both a verb and a
    > noun, and the 'mind of Christ' usage is more as a verb, that is, to
    > be more Christlike in thought and deed, for the animus of Jesus was
    > his Father or the Divine Mind, the Divine Principle of all being,
    > Love.
    >
    > Respectfully,
    > Stuart K.
    >
    >
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