Re: Celebrating Creation.II

From: Stuart d Kirkley (
Date: Sat Oct 26 2002 - 18:44:36 EDT

  • Next message: D. F. Siemens, Jr.: "Re: Celebrating Creation.II"

    More food for thought?


    On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:05 D. F. Siemens, Jr. wrote: >Some good, some dubious. > >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:32:41 -0400 "Stuart d Kirkley" ><> writes: >> >> I'm only positing that there is obviously an intelligent order to >> the >> universe, and that intelligence stems from one source only, which is >> >> mind (for where else could it possibly come from) and that this mind > >The biblical term is Spirit (John 4:24), _pneuma_ rather than _nous_.

    Well, what would Spirit be without Mind, is Spirit mindless? Is Mind Spiritless? Are the two mutually exclusive? I think not, rather I think they are mutually inclusive and are interchangeable as they complement each other.

    >> must be supreme and primordial, an intelligent source beyond any >> human reckoning, and that perhaps this is what we come to know as >> being God, the governing intelligence of all creation. The universe >> >> being infinite, it must be a manifestation of God's infinite >> intelligence, and since intelligence is mind, then perhaps the >> universe is infinite mind expressed. And if so, then it is only meet >> >Best information we have is that the universe is finite and unlimited or >unbounded. This means that it is like the earth, limited in area and >volume, but with no possibility that any of us will fall off the edge. >This, of course, springs from Einstein's special theory. His general >theory makes possible a universe too large to see, let alone traverse, >even in principle. But no universe which has a beginning in a Big Bang >can be infinite.

    Perhaps the universe I'm referring to is the spiritual universe.

    >> to capitalize Mind to ascribe it as a synonym for God. > >see above. This synonymy comes from Christian Science, Unity and related >"science of mind" dogma. It has no relevance to sound thought.

    Well, sorry , but I am a Christian Scientist. That fact has been aired on this list several times before. Yes, Christian Science does use Mind as a synonym for God. It also uses Soul, Spirit, Life, Truth and Love as synonyms also, some of which the Bible itself uses quite specifically, so you might have a bit of an argument convincing people that these Bible synonyms are not sound. The others come from inspired inference, ie, the wisdom of God is a manifestation of intelligence. This intelligence has to have a source, or Mind, and the correlation satisfies a lot of questions as to what God is. I don't know much about Unity or 'science of mind' or others such as New Thought, but I do know that they borrow heavily from Christian Science which was discovered and founded well before these other 'offshoots' were developed. Whether or not Christian Science was alone in using this term initially, I'm not sure, but there seemed to be a lot of religions and belief systmes that adop! ted the term afterwards.

    >> I thought this tied in well with the excellent sermon on praising >> God's wisdom put forward by Robert Schneider. And wisdom being >> another espression of intelligence, or Mind, certainly one has to >> allow that wisdom comes from above, or a higher source of >> intelligence than our limited human capacities, and perhaps this is >> >The difference is that Schneider is expressing standard Christian >theology, not confusing Spirit with mind or Mind. This means that he does >not intend it as you read it. For their adherents, there are few >similarities between Kantian Idealism and the Pragmatism of James and >Schiller. But I know of a case where much of Kant's view was translated >into a flaming Schillerian Pragmatism. It really upset a devoutly Kantian >professor. I present this as an illustration of how incompatible views >can be intertranslated, though the translation will not be recognized by >one group of partisans.

    Again, I don't think these terms are mutually exclusive but mutually inclusive, and complement each other to enlarge our understanding of just what Spirit is, or what Mind is, just as the other synonyms I listed above are also inclusive and amplify each others meaning to give a fuller understanding of God and what His qualities and attributes are. > >> why we should feel reverence and praise for God's benevolence and >> lovingkindness as He ( Divine Mind) guides us through wisdom to a >> better sense of being and harmony. > >But the Christian view is that redemption through the substitutionary >atonement is the only way to reconcile fallen human beings with the >thrice holy Father. This is the ultimate lovingkindness of the Triune >God.

    I don't quite know what this means, I'm not familiar with all the varied forms of Christian worship. For me, atonement is the exemplifacation of man's unity with God, fully expressed in the life of our master, Christ Jesus, who showed us the way to achieve our own atonement and salvation, through following his example in actual life practice. > >> You can accept this or not, and maybe my initial premise went too >> far >> and can be contested through logic, but the concept and idea is >> sound and valid, and for me, carries a lot of weight. I think when >> >> you understand and feel ( which I'm sure you must have) that wisdom >> >> and intelligence come from a place outside of ourselves, as an >> inspiration (as in 'every good gift and every perfect gift is from >> >> above' James1:17), you get an inkling (or even a very strong sense) >> >> of a greater intelligence (a far greater intelligence) which is ever >> >> present and ready to lovingly bestow it's benefits upon you. For me, >> >> it really helps to understand that this intelligence is >> omnipresent >> and omniscient Mind, or God, and the definition, or synonym, is very >> >> apt indeed, to me. That is my personal experience, and I was >> inspired >> by Mr. Scneiders eloquent homily praising God for His benevolent >> wisdom. >> >> Stuart K. >> >I agree that life, continued being, and every good gift has its source in >the One who is Creator and Providence. But I hold that the ultimate >source of understanding of this One is in the incarnate, crucified and >resurrected Son. Further, this underlies Schneider's commendable >meditation. But I see no indication that you understand it within these >commitments. >Dave

    Well, I can agree with you on this point, except that I don't hold that this ultimate source of understanding was exclusive to one person at a particular point in history, that being Jesus Christ. He certainly best expressed that understanding better than any person who has since, or prior to him, trod the earth. But I think that the ablility to understand the divine is eternally present to everyone and is available to anyone who seeks Truth sincerely and seeks to have that 'same mind that is in Christ Jesus', or to follow wisdom in the true path that it leads to. Perhaps this is the Mind I referred to earlier, remember that mind is both a verb and a noun, and the 'mind of Christ' usage is more as a verb, that is, to be more Christlike in thought and deed, for the animus of Jesus was his Father or the Divine Mind, the Divine Principle of all being, Love.

    Respectfully, Stuart K.

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