Re: What is your faith based on?

From: Jay Willingham (
Date: Sat Oct 12 2002 - 11:21:18 EDT

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    George, your response was somewhat short on "shalom".

    Jay Willingham

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "George Murphy" <>
    To: "Hassell, Ian C." <>
    Cc: <>
    Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:19 PM
    Subject: Re: What is your faith based on?

    > Hassell, Ian C. wrote:
    > >
    > > Wow. In my few short months on this list I've learned that much of
    > > supernatural record of the OT couldn't have happened (nor does it
    > > Jesus didn't distinguish between truth and fantasy in His teachings,
    > > lied when describing the after-life, some (but certainly not all) of
    > > gospels may be true, Paul supported and taught positions that we have
    > > determined to be lies (homosexuality is a sin, etc.), the writers of
    > > gospels lied about Jesus' miracles (Peter walking on water), etc., etc.
    > > know that may sound like strong language, but either these passages in
    > > scripture were true or they were lies. Whether they were written out
    > > altruistic motives or not, truth is either truth or it is not. Ask any
    > > year old.
    > >
    > > I can't disagree that it would be infinitely convenient to my "faith"
    if I
    > > were able to dismiss any parts of scripture that I think didn't agree
    > > our current culture (homosexuality, sanctity of life) or our current
    > > interpretation of scientific evidence. But then is my faith really in
    > > all-powerful, all-knowing God or is my faith in my ability to
    > > what I know about him with the current tides of popular culture and
    > > Isn't this really Deistic Humanism? Or Humanistic Deism?
    > >
    > > My first-ever post to this group asked the question - "if the Bible
    > > true, then what is your faith based upon?" I never received an answer,
    > > rather I got a lot of long-winded explanations about the changing
    nature of
    > > language, the difficulty of translation, the inability of us to know
    > > author's intent, etc. If God intended us to have His word (as He
    > > several times within the Bible), if Christ re-affirmed the inspiration
    > > the OT (and taught from it) then wouldn't He have taken care to
    maintain it
    > > throughout a couple thousand years so that our understanding of Him in
    > > could be as real as it was in 0002?
    > You lie. I know that this may sound like strong language and
    > normally I would
    > say "you are mistaken" but I assume from your usage of the word "lie"
    > that you'll
    > consider it acceptable.
    > The first dictionary definition of "lie" is "to utter
    > falsehood with intention
    > to deceive" and that is, I think, the way it's commonly understood.
    > It's true that it
    > can be used in a milder sense but nobody in civil discourse would say
    > "You're lying"
    > when she means "You're wrong." A lie is a deliberate attempt to give
    > information.
    > Nobody that I know of on this list has has said that any of
    > the biblical
    > passages to which you refer are "lies" in this sense. Nor has the
    > argument in most
    > cases been that the biblical writers were simply mistaken. To take a
    > recent case in
    > which I was involved, my argument was not that the writer of the 1st
    > gospel was simply
    > mistaken in thinking that Peter walked on water, much less that he
    > was deliberately
    > lying. I said that it seems likely that the evangelist composed this
    > story as a
    > commentary on the significance of Jesus walking on the sea. As such
    > a commentary it is
    > true.
    > Your initial question, "If the Bible isn't true, then what is
    > your faith based
    > upon?" is inept because neither I nor (I think) any others on the
    > list have said that
    > "the Bible isn't true." Others will have to speak for themselves but
    > my faith is in the
    > crucified and risen God Incarnate to whom scripture - with all its
    varieties of
    > literature and, yes, with some errors of fact (e.g., Mt.27:9)-
    > faithfully bears witness.
    > Shalom,
    > George
    > George L. Murphy

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