Re: Traditional Xtianity teaches

From: Terry M. Gray (
Date: Fri Oct 04 2002 - 00:16:15 EDT

  • Next message: Robert Schneider: "Re: Traditional Xtianity teaches"


    Several have responded--perhaps that is adequate, but I thought I'd
    throw my two-bits in. I'm again disappointed in your conflation of
    politics with theology. I'd like to think that this was all
    tongue-in-cheek (we'll abbreviate that TICIH--"tongue in cheek, I
    hope"). I'm going to answer from my perspective which would be the
    fundamentalism of Warfield and Machen (not the fundamentalism of
    Whitcomb, Morris, Lindsell, etc.). As most of you know I represent a
    fairly conservative brand of presbyterianism (although I'm considered
    to be somewhat liberal in those contexts--I can ditto Bob's comment
    that "one man's Mede is another man's Persian.")

    To say what Gordon Brown said slightly differently, right-wing
    politics must be separated from right-wing theology. Their overlap
    sociologically shouldn't be interpreted to mean that right-wing
    politics are part of right-wing philosophy.

    One that you may have left out that I think is more prominent in
    conservative American evangelicalism (although not so much in more
    Reformed expressions of it) is a view that tobacco, alcohol and other
    recreational drug use even in moderation are forbidden by scripture.
    Also, the groups that seem to be represented by your list would also
    tend to advocate dispensationalism and premillenial eschatology (the
    rapture, 7 year tribulation, the importance of modern day Israel in
    God's plan, etc.)--again, not part of my theology.

    I'd also suggest that you include as parts of your list the
    affirmations of the Apostles' and Nicene Creed, i.e basic Trinitarian
    theology, the vicarious, substitutionary, and propitiatory atonement,
    the necessity of the new birth, the abrogation of Old Testament civil
    and ceremonial laws, the necessity of Holy living and good works, the
    work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification and spiritual gifting (not
    necessarily with the charismatic flares), the importance of prayer,
    the practice of the Lord's Supper and baptism, the importance of the
    church (some kind of fellowship of believers), the importance of
    worship (praise, prayer, preaching, etc.), the reality and
    universality of sin (probably more if I took more time to think about

    Here's my reaction to your list:

    1 Adam and Eve were actual people**********Yes
    2 Those who never hear of Jesus in this life are lost.*******Probably
                      (that's why we send out missionaries)
    3 Those who hear of Jesus and reject him are lost.********Yes
    4 Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. are lost********Yes
    5 All lost people will suffer endless punishment*******Yes
    6 Homosexual acts are always sinful.***********Yes
    7 Abortion at any stage of pregnancy and for any reason is always murder***Yes
    8 Only males should be ordained as ministers, elders, bishops or deacons.
         (I like to divide this question--ministers,elders, bishops--yes,
    9 Jesus second coming will happen***********yes
    10 Believers will be resurrected with new bodies********yes
    11 Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation********yes
    12 It is not sinful to be a Democrat, but it is close to it.*******TICIH
    13 It is always sinful to have a female lead in a worship service*******no
    14 Republicans follow God more closely than Democrats*******TICIH
    15 Salvation means the attainment of heaven after death***Yes (among
    other things)
    16 There are only two possibilities after death, eternal bliss or
    endless punishment*****yes
    17 Jesus Christ is both human and divine********yes
    18 Government welfare is not fair to those who have been sober and
    19 Jesus had a physical body after his resurrection**********yes
    20 Satan is a real entity********yes
    21 Jesus does not approve of gun control laws********TICIH
    22 Jesus does approve of the government mandating public school
    23 Divorce is always sinful***********no
    24 The flood really happened*************yes
    25 Jonah is literal history***********probably
    26 Job is literal history***********probably
    27 The original manuscripts of the Bible are inerrant*****yes
           (with the word inerrant properly defined)
    28 What we have today is quite close to the original manuscripts*******yes
    29 The earth was formed in its present state less than 10,000 years ago******no

    Terry M. Gray, Ph.D., Computer Support Scientist
    Chemistry Department, Colorado State University
    Fort Collins, Colorado  80523
    phone: 970-491-7003 fax: 970-491-1801

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