RE: Traditional Xtianity teaches

From: Hassell, Ian C. (hasselli@eucom.mil)
Date: Thu Oct 03 2002 - 06:51:39 EDT

  • Next message: Don Perrett-VP GPA: "RE: Traditional Xtianity teaches"

    I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this list, but as a Christian with
    a fundamental theology I'll give you the requested feedback. Assuming I am
    not missing out on some sarcasm, I'll give you my response - although I
    can't take some of these points seriously so I wonder if I'm being baited
    into an exercise in outing the fundamentalists on the list...

    The only points that are clearly in line with a "fundamental" view of
    Christianity (and scripture itself) are:
    1,3,5,6,9,10,11,16,19,20,24,25,26,27. My answers are obviously based upon
    #27 (inerrancy) and the assumption of #28 (current versions are very close).
    I'm not a scholar on the history of translation, hence my assumption that 28
    is true. Lots of smart people worked on this before I got here.

    Rationale for dismissal of the other 15:
    2. Read Romans 1
    4. Your mixing apples and oranges - many easterners are cultural "muslims,
    hindus, and buddhists"
    7. According to what scripture? This is one of several 'extra-scriptural'
    positions on your list
    8. Ref 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1. bishops, deacons, (and by implication
    ministers) yes. Elders???
    12. I can only assume you are not serious.
    13. Extra-scriptural
    14. I can only assume you are not serious.
    15. True but not limited to "heaven after death" (Jn 10:10)
    17. "Was" (2100 years ago). "Is" is the wrong tense of the verb "to be"
    18. I can only assume you are not serious.
    21. I can only assume you are not serious.
    22. I can only assume you are not serious.
    23. Not in cases of infidelity (Mt 19:9) as well as I Cor 7:15
    28. I'm not qualified to answer this.
    29. Extra-scriptural

    If I have the time I'll try to put together a list of "What Liberal
    Christians Believe". I'm sure there's a point to this that I'm missing...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: John W Burgeson [mailto:burgytwo@juno.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:16 PM
    To: asa@calvin.edu
    Subject: Traditional Xtianity teaches

    As part of my study, I have been making a list of things that are taught
    by traditional Christianity (i.e. fundamentalism). Confining my focus to
    only the USA, I have come up with a list of twenty-nine likely
    candidates. Some of the items on this list might have essentially a 100%
    agreement -- indeed, some of them are beliefs I subscribe to myself.
    Others might have less support.

    I suspect that all the items on this list would have the support of at
    least 75% of traditional Christians (again -- fundamentalists).

    I wonder if there might be items I left out. Or perhaps items I ought not
    include.

    Comments appreciated. I've done a lot of reading to get to this point --
    but I know I've not touched all the bases yet. I'm also sure that some of
    the items might well be phrased better.

    Here is the list:

    Traditional Xtianity teaches:

    1 Adam and Eve were actual people
    2 Those who never hear of Jesus in this life are lost
    3 Those who hear of Jesus and reject him are lost
    4 Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. are lost
    5 All lost people will suffer endless punishment
    6 Homosexual acts are always sinful
    7 Abortion at any stage of pregnancy and for any reason is always murder
    8 Only males should be ordained as ministers, elders, bishops or deacons
    9 Jesus second coming will happen
    10 Believers will be resurrected with new bodies
    11 Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation
    12 It is not sinful to be a Democrat, but it is close to it
    13 It is always sinful to have a female lead in a worship service
    14 Republicans follow God more closely than Democrats
    15 Salvation means the attainment of heaven after death
    16 There are only two possibilities after death, eternal bliss or endless
    punishment
    17 Jesus Christ is both human and divine
    18 Government welfare is not fair to those who have been sober and
    thrifty
    19 Jesus had a physical body after his resurrection
    20 Satan is a real entity
    21 Jesus does not approve of gun control laws
    22 Jesus does approve of the government mandating public school prayers
    23 Divorce is always sinful
    24 The flood really happened
    25 Jonah is literal history
    26 Job is literal history
    27 The original manuscripts of the Bible are inerrant
    28 What we have today is quite close to the original manuscripts
    29 The earth was formed in its present state less than 10,000 years ago

    John Burgeson (Burgy)

    http://www.burgy.50megs.com
             (science/theology, quantum mechanics, baseball, ethics,
              humor, cars, philosophy, ethics etc.)

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    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this list, =
    but as a Christian with a fundamental theology I'll give you the =
    requested feedback.&nbsp; Assuming I am not missing out on some =
    sarcasm, I'll give you my response - although I can't take some of =
    these points seriously so I wonder if I'm being baited into an exercise =
    in outing the fundamentalists on the list...</FONT></P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The only points that are clearly in line with a =
    &quot;fundamental&quot; view of Christianity (and scripture itself) =
    are: 1,3,5,6,9,10,11,16,19,20,24,25,26,27.&nbsp; My answers are =
    obviously based upon #27 (inerrancy) and the assumption of #28 (current =
    versions are very close).&nbsp; I'm not a scholar on the history of =
    translation, hence my assumption that 28 is true.&nbsp; Lots of smart =
    people worked on this before I got here.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rationale for dismissal of the other 15:</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2.&nbsp; Read Romans 1</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4.&nbsp; Your mixing apples and oranges - many =
    easterners are cultural &quot;muslims, hindus, and =
    buddhists&quot;</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>7.&nbsp; According to what scripture?&nbsp; This is =
    one of several 'extra-scriptural' positions on your list</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>8.&nbsp; Ref 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1.&nbsp; bishops, =
    deacons, (and by implication ministers) yes.&nbsp; Elders???</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>12.&nbsp; I can only assume you are not =
    serious.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>13.&nbsp; Extra-scriptural</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>14.&nbsp; I can only assume you are not =
    serious.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>15.&nbsp; True but not limited to &quot;heaven after =
    death&quot; (Jn 10:10)</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>17.&nbsp; &quot;Was&quot; (2100 years ago).&nbsp; =
    &quot;Is&quot; is the wrong tense of the verb &quot;to be&quot;</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>18.&nbsp; I can only assume you are not =
    serious.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>21.&nbsp; I can only assume you are not =
    serious.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>22.&nbsp; I can only assume you are not =
    serious.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>23.&nbsp; Not in cases of infidelity (Mt 19:9) as =
    well as I Cor 7:15 </FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>28.&nbsp; I'm not qualified to answer this.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>29.&nbsp; Extra-scriptural</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If I have the time I'll try to put together a list of =
    &quot;What Liberal Christians Believe&quot;.&nbsp; I'm sure there's a =
    point to this that I'm missing...</FONT></P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: John W Burgeson [<A =
    HREF=3D"mailto:burgytwo@juno.com">mailto:burgytwo@juno.com</A>]</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:16 PM</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: asa@calvin.edu</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Traditional Xtianity teaches</FONT>
    </P>
    <BR>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As part of my study, I have been making a list of =
    things that are taught</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>by traditional Christianity (i.e. fundamentalism). =
    Confining my focus to</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>only the USA, I have come up with a list of =
    twenty-nine likely</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>candidates. Some of the items on this list might =
    have essentially a 100%</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>agreement -- indeed, some of them are beliefs I =
    subscribe to myself.</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Others might have less support.</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I suspect that all the items on this list would have =
    the support of at</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>least 75% of traditional Christians (again -- =
    fundamentalists).</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I wonder if there might be items I left out. Or =
    perhaps items I ought not</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>include.</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Comments appreciated. I've done a lot of reading to =
    get to this point --</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>but I know I've not touched all the bases yet. I'm =
    also sure that some of</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the items might well be phrased better.</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Here is the list:</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Traditional Xtianity teaches:</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1 Adam and Eve were actual people</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2 Those who never hear of Jesus in this life are =
    lost</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3 Those who hear of Jesus and reject him are =
    lost</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4 Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. are lost</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>5 All lost people will suffer endless =
    punishment</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>6 Homosexual acts are always sinful</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>7 Abortion at any stage of pregnancy and for any =
    reason is always murder</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>8 Only males should be ordained as ministers, =
    elders, bishops or deacons</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>9 Jesus second coming will happen</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>10 Believers will be resurrected with new =
    bodies</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>11 Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>12 It is not sinful to be a Democrat, but it is =
    close to it</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>13 It is always sinful to have a female lead in a =
    worship service</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>14 Republicans follow God more closely than =
    Democrats</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>15 Salvation means the attainment of heaven after =
    death</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>16 There are only two possibilities after death, =
    eternal bliss or endless</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>punishment</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>17 Jesus Christ is both human and divine</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>18 Government welfare is not fair to those who have =
    been sober and</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>thrifty</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>19 Jesus had a physical body after his =
    resurrection</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>20 Satan is a real entity</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>21 Jesus does not approve of gun control laws</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>22 Jesus does approve of the government mandating =
    public school prayers</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>23 Divorce is always sinful</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>24 The flood really happened</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>25 Jonah is literal history</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>26 Job is literal history</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>27 The original manuscripts of the Bible are =
    inerrant</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>28 What we have today is quite close to the original =
    manuscripts</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>29 The earth was formed in its present state less =
    than 10,000 years ago</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>John Burgeson (Burgy)</FONT>
    </P>

    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://www.burgy.50megs.com" =
    TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.burgy.50megs.com></FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
    (science/theology, quantum mechanics, baseball, ethics,</FONT>
    <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
    humor, cars, philosophy, ethics etc.)</FONT>
    </P>

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