Re: Critique of ID & No Free Lunch

From: Tim Ikeda (
Date: Sat Sep 07 2002 - 17:31:00 EDT

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    In VanTill's article, Howard writes:

    >Why focus on the bacterial flagellum?

    I realize that was a rhetorical question but I do have some
    alternate suggestions:

    Perhaps because another IC system suggested by Behe, the vertebrate
    clotting system, exhibits too much evidence of additive complexity
    and retains hints of the historic origins for many of its components?

    Perhaps because ancient (2+ billion years old) and highly evolved/
    tightly-integrated systems such as flagella might be expected to leave
    few hints of origins in the genomes of extant organisms?

    Perhaps because the IC systems that have most recently emerged and
    which would tend to provide the most reliable and conclusive test cases
    for ID tend to look like products of evolution (i.e. the parts tend
    to show similarities to other, previously existing systems)?

    If the question of ID vs. evolution largely hinges on whether indirect
    routes may be accessible for the evolution of IC systems, I propose that
    one look at the most recently emerged systems. These are the
    ones most likely to retain any information about possible precursors
    and are the most amenable to historic reconstruction.

    Just some thoughts...

    Tim Ikeda

    PS: Paul Nelson provides a web page reference for a reply from
    Bill Dembski:

    Unfortunately, that returns (for me):
    >>You are attempting to reach a page that does not exist.

    The following URL worked for me:;f=6;t=000150

    Here's a question for Paul Nelson, while he is still here: What is
    the apparent age of youngest IC system currently being examined by ID
    biologists? (Assuming OEC age estimates, of course). Besides resolving
    questions of evolvability & etc., this information would also help
    determine the relative frequency and timing of possible intelligent
    interventions over the history of life. For example, are there de novo
    IC systems are not shared between humans and chimps?

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