From: allenroy (
Date: Sun Aug 04 2002 - 12:29:53 EDT

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    NAME: Cecil Allen Roy

    AGE: 10/22/50

    VOCATION: Tour guide, Rock hound, Amateur geologist


    Could not find what I wanted to do/be...
    Started in Electrical Engineering, switched to Electronics, then
    Elementary Education, and finally, after 9 years, got an AA degree in
    Civil Engineering Technology (I needed something to feed my family
    with). After working for 5 years for the WA State Highway Department I
    got promoted to my level of incompetency -- writing Highway Project
    Environmental Impact Reports for which I had no training and even less
    interest. Then my wife left me and I went in search of a better life.
    After another 4 years as a part time Computer Science major, I put
    education on hold again with enough credits for nearly 2 majors, but
    spread out too thin to be of any real good. I held a number of
    assorted odd jobs then discovered somewhat by accident that I love
    giving specialized private tours interpreting Grand Canyon within the
    Creationary Cataclysmist paradigm. I am fascinated with geology and am
    self educating myself through wide reading on the topic. One of the
    reasons I'm on the ASAnet is to expose myself to what I believe is the
    latest thinking in the realm of what is typically called Theistic
    Evolutionism or progressive Creationism, etc.. (And, to argue my
    position from time to time).

    At age 50 I was shocked to find that after testing I was able to join

    RELIGION: Seventh-day Adventist

    ORGANIZATIONS: Creation Research Society (supporting), MENSA

    "Fountains of the Great Deep: The Primary Cause of the Flood" CRSQ
    Volume 33, June 1996, pp. 18-22.

    FAMILY: married (second time) for 12 years to Diane L. Harris this
    coming January. Daughter, Amanda Suzanne Roy (10), more trouble than
    the other two put together. Labeled by her Grandmother at age 8 as the
    youngest teenager she ever met.

    Children from previous marriage
    Cecil Andrew Roy (poor kid got tagged with Cecil) married to Dena
    Carrie Ann Bergherm (Roy) married to Brent.

    No Grandchildren! Yet.

    Interesting trivia: 1. Cecil Olan Roy (my dad): Cecil Allen Roy (me):
    Cecil Andrew Roy (son) Not sure what to expect for the next
    generation. 2. My initials spell CAR. My first wife's initials spelled
    CAR. My Son and Daughter's initials spelled CAR. So, we were a four
    CAR family. :)

    My religious training introduced me to what I now call straight-forward
    reading of the Bible -- letting the Bible speak for and interpret
    itself. And, the Historistical interpretive methodology of Bible
    prophecy. And, learning that fulfilled prophecy proves God exists.

    World view:
    Concerning science: I have found that the scientific method is
    philosophy driven. It can only function within a paradigm that guides
    the observation process, the hypothesis development and the
    interpretation of the data acquired by the methodology. The conflict
    between Evolutionism and Creationism is not about facts, but between the
    interpretations of the facts as guided by the two mutually exclusive
    religious paradigms. There is really no conflict between science and
    religion whether we are talking about Evolutionism and science or
    Creationism and science. Science is, and must be done, within either of
    these (or perhaps even other) paradigms.

    For the scientific method to function the student of nature must accept
    the philosophical assumptions of uniformity of law over time and space
    and uniformity of process (actualism) over time and space.

    For the Evolutionist, time is either limited or unlimited depending upon
    whether it is assumed that matter had an origin or if it is thought to
    be unbounded based on the materialistic paradigm where matter is all
    there is, has been or ever will be. In either case, time is consider to
    have been vast.

    Creationists also accept the philosophical assumptions within which the
    scientific method must function -- uniformity of law over time and space
    and uniformity of process (actualism) over time and space. However,
    time is limited based on philosophical assumptions acquired from a
    straight-forward reading of the Bible.

    There are two singularities mentioned in the Bible. As such, they lie
    outside the realm of scientific inquiry that requires repeatability.
    These are the origin of the inorganic (i.e.,, the universe) at "The
    Beginning," And the events of the Creation Week, including the origin
    of life (the organic) on the planet. While science can study matter and
    life as they function according to natural laws, this study cannot
    illumine how nor when the inorganic and the organic came into
    existence. We are given the approximate time (~6000 +/- ??? years) for
    the origin of the organic on the planet. But the age of the inorganic
    is indeterminable but for being prior to the Creation Week.

    There is one other factor that places bounds on time in the Creationary
    paradigm with regard to the inorganic on planet earth -- Noah's Flood.
    A straightforward reading indicates that this was a global event that
    occurred some 4000 years ago. If it was so, then one would expect to
    find the record of it in the geologic record. However, one needs to
    start with the assumption that it did happen else the evidence will not
    be interpreted within Creationary paradigm. This is because the ruling
    geological interpretive method starts with the assumption that no such
    event has ever occurred. The present is taken as the key to the past
    and within the era of scientific inquiry, no event on the apparent
    magnitude of a global cataclysm as described in the Bible has ever
    happened, so there is nothing on that scale in the present with which to
    apply to the geologic record. Therefore, the geologic record is
    interpreted as if no such event ever occurred, that thing continue
    forever just as they do today. However, there is growing evidence of
    large catastrophic interpreted events, i.e. the extinction of the
    dinosaurs because of asteroid impacts, the impacts of Comet
    Shoemake-Levy 9, and the increasing number of earth orbit crossing
    asteroids of significant size.

    When the Creationist accepts the geologic record as being the result of
    a global cataclysm, then the entire method of dating the geologic record
    of sedimentary and associated igneous rock through radiometric means
    goes by the board. By assuming that there was a global cataclysm that
    emplaced nearly all the geologic record within a years time, the
    Creationist drop-kicks all application of radiometric dating to the
    geologic record. Thus, any and all computed dates acquired through
    radiometric means has absolutely no meaning or relevance to the
    Creationary model based on philosophical assumptions acquired from the
    Bible. A creationists has no problem with the accuracy with which
    quantities of elements and isotopes are measured in an assortment of
    rocks, but the interpretation of those measurements into ages is
    irrelevant to the Creationary model. Radiometric ages of the geologic
    record therefore do not conflict with the Bible, they are simply
    irrelevant to a world view based on the Bible.

    However, it may be possible that computed ages of rock and meteorites
    over which the global cataclysm would have no influence, may have some
    validity because the age of the inorganic was prior to the origin of the
    organic and not directly influenced by the global cataclysm.

    Thus, the creationists does science within time bounds as defined in the
    bible -- the origin of the inorganic, the origin of the organic and the
    global cataclysm. Scientific inquiry of the universe is bound by the
    origin of the universe as created by God. Scientific inquiry of the
    organic is bound in time by the Creation week. Scientific inquiry of
    the geologic record of sedimentary and associated rock is time bound to
    the Global cataclysm. The dating of the global cataclysm dates the
    sedimentary rocks, not other, unrelated systems.

    Thus there is no problem between science and "religion," either
    Creationism or Evolutionism. Science is the logical method by which we
    study nature within our chosen paradigm. Evolutionism is the logical
    corollary to the philosophy of Materialism. Creationism is the logical
    corollary to Biblical "literalism" or the straight-forward reading of
    the Bible.

    That apparent conflict arises when Science is erroneously equated with
    Evolutionism. Evolution = Science and Science = Evolution.
    Creationists reject this lapse of logic.

    This got longer than I had expected, but its seems necessary to explain
    my creationary position as part of the Bio because I believe that there
    is much confusion on the topic. ANd when one says, I'm a Creationary
    Cataclysmist, an inexact picture is often conjured up in the minds of
    the listeners.

    Allen Roy

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