Re: Proof?

From: Shuan Rose (
Date: Thu May 16 2002 - 18:46:40 EDT

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    -----Original Message-----
    From: []On
    Behalf Of Kamilla Ludwig
    Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 7:33 AM
    Subject: Proof?

    I seriously doubt I can "prove" the case against homosexuality to someone
    who has already accepted the pro-homosexual rhetoric (whether out of
    "Christian love" or not) and I won't even bother to try with those who
    characterize the blindingly obvious as an argument that is "weak to
    nonexistent". Nevertheless, the following sources provide a good basis
    for those interested in learning more about homosexuality, the homosexual
    lobby and the devastating physical and social consequences of accepting
    their demand to be embraced and celebrated.

    Shuan wrote:
    I I don't know anything about such characterizations. Do you have

    Your state's Public Health Department and Bureau of Vital Statistics
    should be able to provide you with the statistics regarding the relative
    life expectancies of homosexual men and the general male population.
    They should also be able to provide you with statistics about the greater
    incidence of mental illness, suicide, domestic violence, drug and alcohol
    abuse in the homosexual population.

    Shuan wrote:

    There was stuff on my state's public health site about AIDS. Nothing
    specifically about gays. Do you have any references? Moreover, I Googled
    some sites, but found nothing specifically about gays from objective sources
    Apparently, there is not much out there, except a huge amount of anti and
    progay propaganda. But I did see evidence that gays were highly likely to be
    the victim of hate crimes

    2 volumes edited by Christopher Wolfe
              "Homosexuality and American Public Life" and "Same Sex Matters"
    (In the second volume, Chapter 13, by Rabbi Barry Freundel Chapter 14 by
    Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz both give a better explanation of how to love
    the sinner while hating the sin than I have ever seen come from any
    Evangelical source)

    Thomas Schmidt
              "Straight and Narrow?"
    (Particularly pp. 116-122 on the health affects of sodomy, however it is
    defined. The book gives ample notes to original sources)

    Jeffrey Satinover
              "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth"
    (especially Chapter 10: The Unnatural Natural)

    Stanley Grenz
              "Welcoming But not Affirming"
    (the best Evangelical source on the subject I've found)

    And a few Scriptures:

    Genesis 2:18-24 ( we were designed to fit together as male and female)
    P Shuan wrote:
    Correct, male and female were designed to fit together, but what about the
    situation where people may be genetically unable to do so. You don't KNOW
    that this is not the case. If you do, lets see some references

    Genesis 19:4-8 (if we are to believe the revisionist account that the sin
    of Sodom was inhospitality, we must also accept some rather spectacular
    gymnastics with the verb "to know" changing meaning between verse 5 and
    verse 8.

            Shuan wrote:
            The only thing this passage teaches me is that if I am
    attacked by men bent
    on raping me, I should have a virgin daughter available to give them! I
    don't think this is what you have in mind

    Romans 1:21-27 (God allows perversion to breed further perversion)

    I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:10 (both passages refer to
    "arsenokoitai", literally meaning "men who bed men"
    Shuan wrote:
            Paul clearly thinks homosexuality is wrong. He also thinks it
    is unnatural
    for men to wear long hair, and for women to be in churches with their heads
    uncovered.(I Cor 11:1-16).
    He does not oppose the institution of slavery( I Cor 7:20-24), clearly
    advocates speaking in tongues and prophecy as a norm ( I Cor 12) and
    opposes revolution against the government( Rom 13 :1-5). It is fair to say
    that Paul has a number of ideas about right and wrong that would be
    different from the average Christian today. its not clear to me that some
    of Paul's positions are not culturally conditioned. One of them is arguably
    his blanket condemnation of homosexuality. note that no other NT writer
    appears to single out homosexuality, although all condemn sexual immorality

    And, just for you Shuan, Galatians 3:23-25 (I think you can figure that
    one out on your own)

    S Shuan wrote:
            I can also figure out Gal 3:26-28, where we are told (1) that we are no
    longer under that Law that you love so much, and (2) that there is no longer
    any male nor female in Christ!
    Thanks for pointing that passage out to me!

    I'm not going to spend anymore time defending the obvious. When people
    who identify themselves as gay or lesbian embrace this identity they
    have made a choice to act on desires that are, by definition, disordered.
       The sexual activity they embrace is inherently dangerous and unhealthy.

            Shuan wrote:
    All this may be obvious, but you haven't provided a single reference to show
    this. On this listserv, we like references to evidence, not repeated bald
    assertions. Anyone can make bald assertions. I can assert that anyone with a
    German name is by nature anti-Semitic, or has a secret desire to rule the
    world, but without evidence , that would simply be an unfair accusation-kind
    of like ones that you insist on throwing around.

    It is contrary to the telos, design, end and purpose of the human being
    to engage in sexual intimacy with a person of the same sex.

    Shuan wrote:
            Now how on earth do you know the telos, design, end and
    purpose of every
    human being?
            Do you know something the rest of us don't?

    started us off on that road by giving us one passage of Scripture. Human
    beings were designed as male and female to come together as one flesh.

            Shuan wrote:
            There is a long list of people I know who did not fulfill that design,
    starting with Jesus and St. Paul. Guess they were failures.

    If that is something I must "prove", I have to admit I cannot. I cannot
    prove it anymore than I can prove that God exists. If that is a weakness
    on my part, then I celebrate that weakness!

    I Corinthians 10:13, II Corinthians 12:7-10,

            Shuan wrote:
            More pointless hand waving. you have only celebrated your
    closemindedness.Here's a Scripture for you. I John 4:7-8


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