Catholic Church and Morality

From: Adrian Teo (
Date: Tue May 14 2002 - 01:41:37 EDT

  • Next message: Kamilla Ludwig: "Re: Is there a gay gene?"

    Hello Stuart,

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Stuart d Kirkley []

            Stuart: Yes, it was not only an attack, but it was
    essentially a condemnation
            of that lifestyle, something the Catholic church, the moral majority
            and conservative Christians are especially good at.

            AT: This is the most antiCatholic post that I have seen on
    this forum. Please explain to me what is so wrong about condemning an
    immoral behavior? With your argument, one would also have to put
    Jesus into the same category.

            Stuart: No, absolutely not. I strongly hold that individual
    action should be
            tempered by how it impacts on society at large. THe exercise of Free
            speech and Free association, if untempered by a social conscience, is
            socially irresponsible and self serving. My question is, who get's to
            determine what the social ethics are? The Catholic Church? THe
            Government? It is up to the individual to determine what is right or
            wrong in their own way, and God himself will lead everyone to this
            determination throught his infinite wisdom and care for all his

            AT: The flaw in this line of reasoning is that even Hitler
    himself (and his supporters) could have used it for his defense.

            Stuart: FOor any institution to try and ram morality and ethics
            down the throat of the people is tyrannical and not in the spirit of
            Christ's charity, which states" Whatsoever ye would have done to you,
            do it also unto others"

            AT: Come, let us reason, Stuart. Does the official
    pronouncement of an institution or group constitute coercion? Do
    conservatives hold guns to people's heads? Please explain the way in
    which you perceive the actions of conservatives to be an act of
    ramming morality down someone's throat.

            Stuart: The Catholic church is not being asked to give up
    it's values. They
            are simply being asked to recognise the rights of the individual to
            free expression, free speech and free association.

            AT: Does the Catholic Church not have a right to free speech
    also? Why is it wrong to pronounce condemnation on what she believes
    to be immoral behavior? The Catholic Church has been one of the most
    ardent defenders of human rights, especially that of the weakest
    members of society. There are numerous encyclicals and letters which
    have condemn various attacks on human freedom and dignity. Have you
    read any? Where do you get your data from?

            Stuart: They are being
            asked to participate in democracy and honour the civil liberties of
            the individual. They don't have to agree with the lifestyle of that
            individual, but they should consider the morality of censuring human
            rights and civil liberties as their statement against any immorality
            of homosexuality.

            AT: Again, I would ask you to explain how the Catholic Church
    has "censured human rights and civil liberties".

            Stuart: Only the individual can determine if their actions
            are right or wrong, and they do this by being honest with themselves
            and searching their soul for the right ideas, which God will provide
            when they are honestly sought. No institution has the right or moral
            authority to force anyone to do this. God is the only power and
            authority. As I said before no one has the right or moral authority
            to judge or condemn other people, unless their actions are criminal.
            IN this case, there is nothing crimi!
              about this, and like I said, if people don't learn how to 'live and
            let live', then there will always be division, strife, discord and
            war in the world.

            AT: By this reasoning, it appears that only governments are
    allowed to define moral standards since no other body has the
    authority to define criminality. What is wrong is whatever is
    criminal. Thus one can readily accept abortion on demand, premarital
    sex, adultery, viewing pronography etc. But when one travels to
    another country, the standards may change. This is a blatent denial
    of the absolute morality.

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue May 14 2002 - 14:10:52 EDT