Re: What does a liberal think?

From: John W Burgeson (
Date: Sat May 11 2002 - 13:19:19 EDT

  • Next message: Stuart d Kirkley: "Re: What does a liberal think?"

    Don wrote:

    John wrote: Free speech(as being important)
      Don P: Absolutely

    JB: Then you are opposed to the so-called flag burning amendment?
      John: Religion free from government interference, either positive or

    Don P: Which also means that if someone wants to pray or conduct
    activities in school, they should be able to do so. This does not mean
    everyone should be required however.

    JB: I agree, and I think that is current law.
      John: Against any law that inserts a grim faced man in a blue suit with
    large gun into a doctor's office. In other words, pro-choice -- but NOT

    Don P: People that are pro-abortion do have rights just as all do. For
    the law says that a woman can have an abortion. So we must follow the
    But if one believes that God intended for people to do so, then this is

    JB: What is wrong? I happen to agree that abortion is a bad idea. Yes --
    a "sin," at least in some instances. What I oppose is a LAW to control
    it. I oppose a law because I see a law doing more harm than good. On my
    website are testimonies from six women who were involved in the "real
    thing." Read them.
    Don P. Concerning race, why do you think
    that the black population has not grown at the same level as whites and
    particularly Latin-Americans. Of course, most will say that it is due to
    immigration. Partly, but Planned Parenthood has pushed the abortion issue
    the point and for the purpose of controlling, or limiting, the number of
    births to lower income people. This of course has a great effect on
    Not so much with Latin-Americans, due to catholic beliefs. It is not
    necessarily a race issue, but the rich do not want more poor babies that
    they must support with taxes and that will be a burden to the economy and
    thus their own pockets.

    JB: If I am unpacking your claim above, you are accusing PP of certain
    unethical practices. I have no particular knowledge of PP, so on that
    subject I cannot comment, except to note that if that is your claim, it
    needs grounds for belief.

    On immigration -- the average immigrant during the past several years has
    had a slightly higher educational level than the general American public
    (in terms of college diplomas).
    Reference: IMMIGRANT AMERICA by Portes and Rumbaut.

    John: Anti-racist in a wide meaning of that term. See all humanity as
    before God.
              People of color have equal standing
              Women have equal standing
              People with different sexual preferences have equal standing
    See diversity as a "good thing."

    Don P: You are correct. Everyone is and should be equal, regardless of
    they were born. Color is not chosen, nor is gender. Sexual preference
    however is chosen, and to my knowledge against God's will.

    JB: Your claim is that sexual preference is chosen. I do not think you
    can cite reasonable grounds for this. Of all the gays (male term) and
    lesbians (female term) and trans-gendered people I know, and that is more
    than a few (OK -- only one trans-gendered that I am aware of) none hold
    that their orientation was in any way "chosen." The evidence for genetics
    is large; for environmental is also present, although not as large; the
    evidence for chosen is small. That some may choose it is agreed; that
    more than a small % of all gays & lesbians choose it is hard to defend.

    You say "to my knowledge against God's will." I accept that; it was my
    opinion also -- ten years ago. After study, I came to a different
    position. Study materials on my web site (on both side) are there for
    anyone who wishes to look at them. Also my own position statement.

    Don P. Anyone that chooses for personal gain, or reasons, not to
    propagate is wrong. This was our main function given by God. To chose not
    to have children for medical, or religious reasons, is one thing. But,
    because one prefers same sex, that is
    not beneficial to the human race. This is not just religious, but
    logic. Wondering why we are going to have a short fall of people to pay
    social security. Baby Boom? Not solely. Abortion and same sex have
    the birth rates necessary to replenish and grow. If everyone chose to
    abortions and same sex then we would be committing self genocide. Where's
    the logic in that?"

    Wow. OK Don. we now have a world population of 6 billion people. As I
    read what you have written you see it "God's will" that this number
    increase until the only room left on earth is for some people to sit on
    standing peoples' laps.

    I'm sorry -- I see no logical argument in what you have written.

      Don P. "Do we not provide rehab for drug users and phys rehab for
    handicaps. Why not for homosexuals?

    It exists. See the Exodus web site. They claim some successes. There may
    be some who can be changed through rehab. Apparently, however, such as
    these are a small minority.

    Don P. " How can anyone say that homosexuality is not harming others.
    Heard of AIDS? "

    JB: Yes. One of the great diseases hitting mostly heterosexual folks. The
    sin here is promiscuity, both homosexual and heterosexual. Which is, I
    assert, proscribed by scripture.
    John: Honor those of a different religious persuasion.
    Honor those with no religious persuasion.
    See Christianity as primarily a confessional, not a prescriptive

    Don P: Christianity is not prescriptive, but belief in salvation, whether
    from Jesus of Nazareth or the one to come, is necessary. Even Jews and
    Muslims believe in salvation, although perhaps not Jesus. If your
    is to imply that any religion works, this may be only from a
    and perhaps moral point.

    JB: "Belief IN salvation?" I don't grek that. And you read into my
    statement much more than I wish to imply.
    John: Finally, the following good news came to me today from a fellow

    > Dallas City Council Approves Anti-Discrimination Ordinance
    > The Associated Press, May 8, 2002
    > The Rev. Flip Benham, director of the Dallas-based anti-abortion group
    > Operation Save America, spoke against the measure.
    > "It's a travesty that breaks my heart," he said. "The city hall has
    > declared itself as God. It's a direct attack on the word of God."
    This person sees no attack on the word of God. Except, perhaps, by Flip

    Don P: To discriminate would be wrong, but as I said, we must help them
    the way for their own sake as well as society's. Just as it benefits
    everyone to rehab a drug user. Tolerance, coupled with prayer and rehab.

    Tolerance is better than hate. Acceptance is better than tolerance. Rehab
    is, as far as I can see, a false hope for persons with a homosexual
    affinity. AT least most of them.

    Thank you for the comments.

    John Burgeson (Burgy)
            (science/theology, quantum mechanics, baseball, ethics,
             humor, cars, philosophy and much more)

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