RE: Black Sea Flood

From: Shuan Rose (
Date: Wed May 01 2002 - 17:14:34 EDT

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    Glory to Ugaboogah!!
    Seriously, although I come late to what is well-worn ground, I want to put
    in my tuppence:
    Glenn, why is what you are saying that much different from the literalist
    who insists on a walking, talking snake in a literal garden? HE could say
    the same: if the Bible says there was a talking snake and there wasn't, the
    Bible is false. We are really talking about different forms of literature
    here, and there is no reason to believe that EVERYTHING (Jonah and the fish,
    Balaam's ass, Esther, the Prodigal Son) is literally true.OTOH, there is an
    irreducible minimum . If somewhere in Palestine, a tomb is located with a
    skeleton with a crown with KING OF THE JEWS written on it, then the game is
    up. I think we would have to say that Christianity is false. Beyond the IM,
    I'm prepared to be open-minded.
    Speaking of observational Data, Glenn, I observe that there are parallels
    between Genesis 1-11 and various Near Eastern myths. I argue in another post
    that the stories in Genesis 1-11 were originally written to correct
    misunderstandings of YAHWEH based on NE mythology. But I haven't observed
    any evidence that Australopithecus or early Homo had a moral sense, or could
    build a boat and herd animals into it, or worshiped the one true God.
    I have sympathy with the concordist interpretations, I do. But to me the
    evidence of the "antimyth" interpretation seems superior.
    Some links about relationship of Gen 1-11 to Near East myths.
    Ancient Near East creation accounts
    Mesopotamian flood stories
    the myth of Enkidu
    The serpent is akin to the dragons and monsters of ancient creation myths,
    creatures such as Lotan (Leviathan) in the Baal texts from Ugarit and the
    water god Apsu in the Enuma Elish from Mesopotamia
    There is a good book"Creation and Chaos" by Bernard Anderson which discusses
    this in detail, and links it with Revelation in the NT.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: []On
    Behalf Of Glenn Morton
    Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:30 PM
    To: george murphy
    Cc: Asa@Calvin. Edu
    Subject: RE: Black Sea Flood

    Hi George, you wrote:

    > I'm loathe to enter into another round of debates with
    >Glenn on this,
    >but have to note that almost everybody involved in all these
    >discussions about
    >Genesis is trapped within a general concordist paradigm. For some the
    >constriction is much narrower than others. Glenn has gathered a
    >great deal of
    >useful geological & anthropological data & we all should admire
    >his insistence
    >on honesty in dealing with the scientific and historical material.
    > But while he
    >plays the role of Miciah ben Imlah very well with this material, he is not
    >willing to go on to question the concordist paradigm itself.

    Don't worry, George, we probably can't plough new ground on this topic than
    what we have ploughed/disturbed in the past. This will be my only statement
    and you can have the last word.

        Am I willing to discuss the concordist paradigm, yes. Do I believe in a
    different epistemology than defining that which is true as being that which
    matches observational reality? No. For one overpowering reason, George.
    When I was a YEC I knew in my deepest heart that YEC didn't match reality
    yet I still beieved. I won't go there again even if it is for another side
    in this fractious issue. If where the Bible touches on historical or
    scientific reality it says things which are demonstrably false, then it is

    > Well, not entirely. He recognizes that Genesis 1 is a
    >different kind of
    >critter & doesn't try to force it into aritificial agreement with
    >Genesis 2.
    >Thus he avoids the error of, e.g., Dick Fischer who, in his desire
    >to harmonize
    >1 & 2, creates serious problems with the NT's _theological_ (N.B.)
    >of Adam.
    > There are two problems with this whole concordist
    >approach. First, it
    >assumes that texts can be true & authoritative only if they are accurate
    >historical &/or scientific accounts. Secondly, they start in the
    >wrong place -
    >the OT, & Genesis in particular, rather than the NT & Christ. The OT is
    >important - nay, indispensable. But it's to be read in the light
    >of the NT, not
    >vice versa. If you start either systematic theology or
    >apologetics with Genesis
    >then your theological framework has already been solidified before
    >you get to
    >any explicit mention of Christ.

    If you remember Ugaboogah, the god of the universe, of whom I spoke years
    ago, if Jehovah didn't
    create the universe, and Ugabooga did, then we should worship Ugaboogah and
    forget the Bible. Christ's claim is based upon the resurrection. But we
    can't verify that at this late date so the only verification which can occur
    lies in the natural realm.
    If the Bible says there was a ressurrection and there wasn't, the Bible is
    If the Bible says there was an Exodus and there wasn't, the Bible is false.
    If the Bible says there was Abraham and there wasn't, the Bible is false.
    If the Bible says there was a conquest and there wasn't, the Bible is false.

    But as we have gone round and round about, if the Bible says there was a
    Flood, or creation happened in a particular way, and it didn't happen that
    way, then suddenly the Bible isn't false.
    I never have understood any rational reason for the change.

    And when it comes to Genesis 1:1, it says God created the heavens and the
    earth. What is the evidence that God created? It simply has to be that the
    Bible tells us what actually happened. If it doesn't, then I see no reason
    to say it is still true. Heads I win, tails you lose.

    But as I say, you can have the last word.


    for lots of creation/evolution information
    personal stories of struggle

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