RE: Redheads descended from Neanderthals?

From: Glenn Morton (
Date: Wed Jan 30 2002 - 22:01:22 EST

  • Next message: Jan de Koning: "Re: Redheads descended from Neanderthals?"

    Hi George, you wrote:
    > George
    >(Who, I have recently learned, may be of Neanderthal descent through

    I and my grandmother Morton toast you and your grandpa as a fellow Thals!

    There has always been much more evidence than just red-headedness to link us
    with the N.'s.

    There is more than just red-hair that links us with the Neanderthals. One
    needs to look at the bones through time. In Europe we have the same pattern
    we have with North American Indians. A small population faces a large influx
    of 'visitors', Europeans in the 16th-18th century in North America and
    Africans 30,000 years ago in Europe. When you view the bones through time
    you see a swamping of the native traits both in NOrth America and in Europe.
    Interbreeding swamps the few and their descendants look like the invaders.

    I will start with the H-O
    mandibular foramen. This is a place which the nerve to your jaw
    comes out of the bone and into the flesh. It is a little hole
    inside of your jaw and where the dentist tries to put the
    novacaine. Most people do not have the H-O form of this hole.
    Neanderthals had the H-O form or at least half of them did.

    European H-O Normal
                                 Foramen Foramen
                                   % %

    Neanderthal 53 47

    Now the anatomically modern people are supposed to have invaded
    Europe, wiped out the N.'s and according to the Out of Africa crowd their
    were to have no genetic connection with the Neanderthals. And
    here are the foramen shapes for the invaders:
                                H-O % Normal %
    African Eves 0 100 supposed invader
    Skhul/Qafzeh 0 100 supposed invader

    But what are the percentages of the earliest moderns in Europe?
                                H-O % Normal %
    Early U. Paleolithic 18 82

    Where did these earliest modern humans in Europe get the H-O
    foramen? Miracle? Immaculate conception? Interbreeding is the most likely
    explanation. But as time went on, with further interbreeding with the
    invaders, the
    trait became rarer.
                                H-O % Normal %
    Late U. Paleolithic 7 93

    And even rarer in the earliest farming period
                                H-O % Normal %
    Mesolithic 2 98

    And today it is quite rare
                                H-O % Normal %
    Medieval Europeans 1 99

    But Europeans are the only ones who have this trait and Europeans
    are the only ones who live in the former territory of the Neanderthals! The
    swamping by the invaders makes our bones look like the invaders but it
    doesn't destroy all genetic contribution to this generation anymore than the
    Europeans who in merely 400 years have swamped the genes of native americans
    to the point where the y chromosomes of one tribe in Canada are 99%
    European! During a blink in the eye of time their y chromosome has nearly
    been wiped out. This is the Ahnishinahbaeojibway tribe where a guy analyzed
    the genalogies of living descendants. see Milford Wolpoff and Rachael
    Caspari, Race and Human Evolution, (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997), p.

    Yet that doesn't rule out an Ahnishinahbaeojibway genetic contribution to
    these descendants. But if we use the mitochondrial Eve logic where people
    say that if the N.'s don't have a modern mtDNA then they left no genetic
    contribution in the modern population we would be forced to say that the
    Ahnishinahbaeojibway had no genetic input to their descendants only 400
    years down the road!!!! Of course this is silly, but this is what Robert
    Newman is saying when he sides with the view that the archaics can't be
    related to us. He wrote:

    "One Christian, Glenn Morton, puts the origin of the human race back
    several million years ago with the Australopithicines; at the other
    extreme is Dick Fischer, who places the origin of humans about five
    thousand years ago with Adam, but not as the progenitor of the entire
    human race. I am closer to Hugh Ross, who sees the creation of Adam as
    some tens of thousands of years ago, which seems to fit the evidence
    from mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosome Adam better than Morton's view,
    and the biblical teaching of Adam as our forefather better than
    Fischer's. I am closest to the position of John Bloom." Robert C.
    Newman, "Conclusion" in J. P. Moreland and John Mark Reynolds, editors,
    Three Views on Creation and Evolution, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999),
     p. 154-155

    By Newman's and Ross's logic, give us a few more generations and the 17th
    century Ahnishinahbaeojibway will no longer be an ancestor of the members of
    the Ahnishinahbaeojibway tribe!!!!

    Now lets look at other data--say the nasion projection:

    Fossil Sample Nasion Projection (mm)

    Neanderthals 29.3
    African Eve 17.8---supposed invader
    Skhul/Qafzeh 12.4---supposed invader
    Early Upper Paleolithic 21.9
    Late Upper Paleolithic 19.3
    Mesolithic 19.3
    Medieval Hungarians 20.2
     ~ David W. Frayer, "Evolution at the European Edge: Neanderthal and Upper
    Paleolithic Relationships," Prehistoire Europeenne, 2:9-69, Table 2, p. 17

    The earliest Europeans DON'T look like the invaders! yet they are considered
    modern humans.

    and the Meric Index

     Fossil Sample Meric Index

    European Neanderthals 79.6
    Skhul/Qafzeh 83.1--supposed invader
    Early Upper Paleolithic 77.6
    Late Upper Paleolithic 78.0
    Mesolithic 78.0
    Medieval 80.4
     ~ David W. Frayer, "Evolution at the European Edge: Neanderthal and Upper
    Paleolithic Relationships," Prehistoire Europeenne, 2:9-69, Table 8, p. 35

    Same here.


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