Historical Adam

From: Dick Fischer (dickfischer@earthlink.net)
Date: Tue Jan 01 2002 - 14:23:03 EST

  • Next message: george murphy: "Re: Exegesis or Eisegesis?"

    Glenn Morton wrote:

    >Dick is correct
    >that any apologetic which wants to have a real Adam must take one of two
    >positions--either Adam was millions of years ago as I have been suggesting,
    >or that Adam was very recent and not the father of all humanity

    If we look at Genesis 1-11 as an historical narrative with interesting
    stops along the way, ignoring the genealogies for the time being, we have
    in order of presentation the creation of Adam and Eve, sin and banishment,
    Noah and the flood, the dispersion of the sons and grandsons of Noah, the
    tower of Babel incident, and we are introduced to Abraham. Since we seem
    to have differences of opinion on the time and place for Adam, maybe it
    would be better to start with Abraham who lived in the Sumerian city of Ur
    about 2000 BC, and work backward. This gives us a time and place we should
    be able to agree on as a starting point.

    Abraham departed Ur around the time, according to history books, that Ur
    was destroyed by the Gutians and Elamites. Elamites come from Elam, Noah's
    grandson, who according to Persian history ruled around 2300 BC.

    The ziggurats of southern Mesopotamia were built as described in
    Genesis. Mud bricks were sun dried normally because of the scarcity of
    wood in what is present-day Iraq. Wood-fired, burned bricks were used only
    in certain areas of ziggurats, such as the alters and the exterior
    walls. When the tower builders exclaimed, "let us make brick, and burn
    them thoroughly," it was out of great pride that they would go to such
    expense. Bitumen was used as a weather-tight casing for the bricks and to
    stick them together.

    Gudea, king of Lagash, constructed the temple he built to worship Eninnu
    from burnt bricks, stone, and "bitumen from wells," and "bitumen from
    bitumen lake." Finding pitch with which to make the ark watertight would
    be an easy task. The phrase, "let us make us a name" appearing in Genesis
    11:4 is echoed in Gudea's liturgy, "On account of the great name which he
    had made for himself he was received among the gods into their assembly."

    The building of mud brick platforms began around 3000 BC and grew larger
    through time becoming temples dedicated to various gods. The heyday of
    ziggurat building ended around 2000 BC with the destruction of the
    Mesopotamian cities. The significance of the tower of Babel was known in
    ancient times. It was restored by Nabopolassar, the founder of the
    Neo-Babylonian dynasty, about 625 to 605 BC. These are his words:

             "The lord Marduk commanded me concerning Etemenanki, the staged
    tower of Babylon, which before
             my time had become dilapidated and ruinous, that I should make its
    foundations secure in the bosom
             of the nether world, and make its summit like the heavens."

    His firstborn son, Nebuchadnezzar, continued in the efforts started by his
    father, carrying out building the tower at Babylon until 562 BC. When
    finished, a seven stage structure and its temple complex reached nearly 300
    feet in height.

    Herodotus visited Babylon about 460 BC and gave this report:

             "In the midst of the temple a solid tower was constructed, one
    stadium in length and one stadium in width.
             Upon this tower stood another, and again upon this another, and so
    on, making eight towers in all, one upon
             another. All eight towers can be climbed by means of a spiral
    staircase which runs round the outside. About
             halfway up there are seats where those who make the ascent can sit
    and rest. In the topmost tower there is
             a great temple, and in the temple is a golden table. No idol
    stands there. No one spends the night there save
             a woman of that country, designated by the god himself, so I was
    told by the Chaldeans, who are the priests
             of that divinity."

    Why did the Sumerians and Accadians start building mud brick platforms in
    the first place? Look at the timing. The platforms began appearing at the
    time of the predynastic period of Mesopotamian history called Early
    Dynastic 1, from 2900-2750 BC with the post-flood rulers at
    Kish. Communities were built close enough to rivers so they could draw
    water via their irrigation canals, but they needed to be far enough away to
    avoid annual floods. When an exceptional flood hit their cities, they
    suffered death. A flood of Noahic proportions occurred at 2900 BC
    according to archaeologists who excavated the ancient cities of Uruk
    (Erech), Lagash, Kish, and Shuruppak. The Sumerians and Accadians were
    spurred to invention, and platforms began to appear in every city.

    If we take the genealogies into account at this point, we can see that with
    Abraham at 2000 BC, the flood took place at 2348 BC using the Masoretic
    text, or 2978 BC using the Septuagint. That is not a bad fit. The
    archeological evidence (only a portion stated here) helps validate the
    genealogical account in Genesis and Luke from at least Abraham back to
    Noah. Why would the genealogies be suspect from Noah back to Adam?

    >Dick places Adam between 5000 and 4000 BC based upon when certain
    >technologies were supposed to have appeared.

    >So he is claiming that archaeological data shows that these inventions
    >occurred between 4 and 5000 BC. This claim is pure poppycock (not that it
    >will cause Dick to alter his opinion). He is not at all paying attention to
    >the archaeological evidence even which was available when he wrote the
    >article (all the data I cite is 1993 or earlier)
    >Lets start with musical instruments. They were in existence LONG before 5000

    Mankind predates Adam, and many human inventions predate Adam. I think
    Glenn not only misunderstands me, he misunderstands the writer of
    Genesis. Cain's descendents were instructors, or were seen as leaders of
    men ("father of"). To say that Jabal, "was the father of such as dwell in
    tents, and of such as have cattle" doesn't mean that Jabal invented tents
    or cattle. There were those who dwelled in tents and raised livestock who
    were followers or descendents of Jabal. Farming and raising domesticated
    animals is not attributed to Homo erectus, for example.

    A second son Jubal, "was the father of all such as handle the harp and
    organ." Simple flutes predate Adam, however, there is no evidence of
    stringed instruments such as "harps" at the time of Cro Magnon, for
    example. My conclusion that Cro Magnon man predates this immediate
    ancestor of Adam is sound. Glenn's placement of the flood at roughly 5
    million years ago, requires tents, farming, cattle, stringed instruments,
    and even tools made out of bronze and iron prior to 5 million years
    ago! Where is the evidence for that?

    Tubal-cain, was "an instructor of every worker in brass and
    iron." Whatever date we can establish for the first iron tool would set an
    outer limit as to how far back Adam could have lived. In this part of the
    article all I am trying to do is establish that Adam and his immediate
    descendants could not have existed prior to these human inventions. Adam
    is identified with the bronze and iron ages. He was not contemporary with
    the "Flintstones" identified with the stone age.

    If I said my father, James Fischer, flew airplanes in the Marine Corps, it
    would tell you approximately when he lived. Pilots did not live in the
    18th century, for example.

    Dick Fischer - The Origins Solution - www.orisol.com
    "The answer we should have known about 150 years ago"

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Jan 01 2002 - 21:00:15 EST