Re: So. Baptist Spin on BOE Vote

From: James Mahaffy (
Date: Wed Jun 06 2001 - 15:17:43 EDT

  • Next message: James Mahaffy: "Bob Gastaldo"

    Bill Payne ( wrote:
    > Date: Wed Jun 06 2001 - 01:29:09 EDT
    > On Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:31:34 +1000 Jonathan Clarke
    > <> writes:
    > > I think Gastaldo's statement about Austin is probably quite correct.
    > Austin
    > > probably believes (along with almost every neo-diluivialist geologist I
    > have
    > > ever met) that coal formed during Noah's flood not because of
    > scientific
    > > evidence, but because their theology requires them to.
    > That may be true, but you cannot demonstrate that from his thesis:
    > "Depositional Environment of the Kentucky No. 12 Coal Bed (Middle
    > Pennsylvanian) of Western Kentucky, with Special Reference to the Origin
    > of Coal Lithotypes", The Pennsylvania State University, The Graduate
    > School, Department of Geosciences, August 1979. Why don't you order a
    > copy via interlibrary loan (if they'll send it down under)?

    Two comments:

    Jon said in the above,
    > > ever met) that coal formed during Noah's flood not because of
    > scientific
    > > evidence, but because their theology requires them to.

    May I suggest we all believe things because our theology and or faith
    requires us to. That is why I believe in a Creator. The difference is
    that a number of Christians are not required by their faith to take a
    stand against the current geological models with their supporting
    scientific evidence.

    May I suggest that Bob G. reaction to Bill (which was unjust) is also
    faith based and seen as an attack on the foundations of his commitment
    to a type of science that does NOT use the supernatural. It is clear
    that the YEC folks taking a faith based stand that clashes with the
    established paradigms are more apt to be unfairly picked on. I feel for
    them beause while not YEC, my position (which I don't always share)
    sometimes clashes with established paradigms. It would be easier to be
    a dualists or TE but my faith commitment does not let me be either.

    Second comment:
    Now that I have picked a bit on Jon, let me suggest to Bill that Steve
    Austin was trying to see if he could explain the coal he was looking at
    from a flood model (rafted peat). It was not just an emperical study -
    his faith commitment was involved in the model he applied. That was I
    think clear to the scientific community and they did laugh a bit at it
    down at the coal departments at the University of Illinois (where I
    was). But I think it was commendable for YEC to try and apply his model
    to an actual coal. I know of only one other Ph. D. thesis (in
    palynology under Chadwick at Loma Lima - I read this one) that at its
    heart applies a YEC model. While I don't think either (I have not
    carefully read Austin's [but I know the coals in question well]) is an
    exceeding strong thesis, both used a YEC model in their thesis and that
    is to be commended. The YEC camp really needs to do a lot more of this.
    But I suspect it is harder to get a thesis with a model that much of the
    department thinks is wacky. There is a current paleontology grad
    student who I think was unfairly treated because of his YEC position.
    Things have settled down and I think he will get his degree but it was
    nasty for a time.

    James and Florence Mahaffy    712 722-0381 (Home)
    227 S. Main St.              712 722-6279 (Office)
    Sioux Center, IA 51250

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