Re: Don't forget about me! (distal vs. proximate)

From: Terry M. Gray (
Date: Fri Apr 13 2001 - 11:28:03 EDT

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    One doesn't have to look too far to see this. My scant published writings
    in this area are full of a critique of atheistic naturalism as are my web
    pages and my discussions with students in my classes.

    The books by Howard Van Till serve as a stellar example. In both *The
    Fourth Day* and *Science Held Hostage* there is "equal time" given to the
    critique of YEC and of the athestic naturalists. As you know Howard and I
    don't see eye to eye on everything, but I have no doubt that he offers a
    sustained critique of atheistic naturalism as a philosophical/theological
    system. It just doesn't trickle down into any critique of evolutionary
    science that Johnson and company want it to.

    I just had a chance to read George Murphy's article in the latest
    Perspectives, posted on the web at While I can't
    say I had my nit-picking glasses on, I found it to be a good explanation of
    why we might not expect "differences" between theistic and non-theistic
    science. As I've argued elsewhere, non-theists are actually doing theistic
    science, they just don't know it or won't admit it.


    >In a message dated 4/11/01 11:30:59 AM, writes:
    ><< In summary, critiquing the science is not the unique task of theists. It is
    >the joint task of the entire evolutionary biology scientific community and
    >I maintain that they are actively engaged (as a community) in such a
    >critique. >>
    >Of course. But my question was, what have TEs contributed to this critique?
    >All the examples you gave, as I understand them, were from non-theistic
    >members of the evolutionary biology community. Or to put it another way, in
    >my observation TEs have been more involved in _defending_ evolutionary theory
    >than in critiquing it.
    >But let me expand my question. In your original post, you stated: "As I've
    >said many times before, the critique that we ought to be making of the
    >atheistic scientific
    >community is at the philosophical/theological level and not at the practical
    >science level." Have TEs been making these critiques? Again, my observation
    >is that TEs have been more involved in critiquing, and often attacking,
    >YECs than the philospical/theology of "atheistic scientific community."
    >Best regards,

    Terry M. Gray, Ph.D., Computer Support Scientist
    Chemistry Department, Colorado State University
    Fort Collins, Colorado 80523
    phone: 970-491-7003 fax: 970-491-1801

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