Without excuse

From: Panaccione,Brian J. (panaccio@mitre.org)
Date: Mon Apr 02 2001 - 22:21:26 EDT

  • Next message: Tim Ikeda: "Re: silent? majority? from Question"


    Good point.

            "We know by faith who Christ is and we know
            through experimentation what science is. "

    Romans ch. 1 provides a good perspective in addition to the verses you
    referred to.

    1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all
         and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their
    1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God
    has made it
         plain to them.
    1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes--his
    eternal power
         and divine nature--have been clearly seen, because they are
    understood through
         what has been made. So people are without excuse.
    1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give
    him thanks,
         but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts
    were darkened.
    1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools...

    Emphasis on v:19, "God has made it plain to them", no PhD. required, (no
    offense intended to PhD's on the list).


    -----Original Message-----
    From: asa-owner@udomo3.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@udomo3.calvin.edu]On
    Behalf Of Moorad Alexanian
    Sent: Monday, 02 April, 2001 14:32
    To: Todd S. Greene; asa@calvin.edu
    Subject: Re: preposterous

    Dear Todd,

    I think is nonsense to tie-up any scientific theory to our Christian
    Scientists who do that are proud and foolish since they consider their
    thoughts to be infallible. Anything in between is speculative
    and not worth dividing the body of Christ over it. I would venture to
    that those who are divisive are not Christians and are actually allies
    the devil himself. I plead ignorance on that connecting region between
    faith and science. It is already a chore to set the notion straight of
    science is and what it is not. I hesitate on questions of origins by
    realizing that such questions are rather difficult. I do not know what I
    would think of evolutionary theory and the history of the earth if I
    not a Christian. But I judge the work in that area and compare it with
    rigor that is needed to do good physics and realize that most, if not
    is very speculative and may border on bad science. I only know that the
    whole secret is in Christ, "....resulting in a true knowledge of God's
    mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures
    wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3, to whom we must turn.

    Best regards,


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Todd S. Greene <tgreene@presortservices.com>
    To: asa@calvin.edu <asa@calvin.edu>
    Cc: Moorad Alexanian <alexanian@uncwil.edu>
    Date: Monday, April 02, 2001 4:06 PM
    Subject: Re: preposterous

    >Hi, Moorad.
    >In my experience over the last more than 20 years, I have encountered,
    >in person and in writing, dozens of young earth creationists who have
    >claimed that the young earth creationism creed is a "salvation issue,"
    >determining whether or not a Christian is in good standing with God.
    >I have also encountered dozens of young earth creationists who, while
    >admitting that they do not believe that YEC is a salvation issue, they
    >still consider any Christian who rejects it (which includes "old earth
    >creationists") to be "suspect" and to have "compromised their faith."
    >I have *never* - I repeat, I have *never* - encountered one single
    >non-YEC Christian who has ever considered this matter to be a salvation
    >issue, or who has considered that a Christian's perspective *on this
    >particular matter* to, in itself, has any bearing on a Christian's
    >standing with God.
    >We must be honest and clear about who it is who typically uses these
    >particular issues by which to judge the faith of other Christians.
    >While there are some Christians who still think that geocentrism is a
    >live issue (Tom Willis of Kansas notoriety, for example), there is
    >nothing wrong with those for whom it is a dead issue to criticize the
    >idea itself (even to the extent of calling it "preposterous") and to
    >further express criticism of any who would set up the doctrine as one
    >measure of the faith of other Christians. In exactly the same way, for
    >those who have learned about certain relevant aspects of the real
    >YEC is simply a dead issue. For example, antiquity is a real feature of
    >the world that we live in. It is agreed that there are many for whom
    >relevant information regarding this feature is just not known or not
    >understood very clearly. So in their uncertainty they are equivocal
    >about it. That's fine. But they have no right to measure everyone else
    >according to their own uncertainty (based on their own personal
    >unfamiliarity with the relevant information).
    >James' discussion in the New Testament gives us a good idea of what
    >religion is, and a person's beliefs regarding young earth creationism
    >isn't it.
    >Sincerely, and regards,
    >Todd S. Greene
    >###### Moorad Alexanian, 4/2/01 12:29 PM ######
    >I want to gauge your meaning of the word "preposterous." Would you
    >a) Give your life for exchange of the truth or falsehood of what YEC
    > believe or claim?
    >b) How about your life and that of your family?
    >or, better,
    >c) the truth of Who Christ is?

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