Re: Answersingenesis

From: Jonathan Clarke (
Date: Sun Apr 01 2001 - 04:44:28 EDT

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    NZ and Oz are sufficently different not to be lumped together by the northern
    hemisphere antipodeans. It is as dangerous an error as calling a Canadian an
    American, a Scot an Englishman, or a Netherlander Belgian :-)

    I don't know many Maori personally but what I do know is that many Maori churches
    tend to lean towards the very fundamentalist and pentecostal or charismatic end
    of the spectrum. I suspect that YEC is taken as part of the package, along with
    suits, ties, and the KJV. It is possible that as a enthic group they feel even
    less ownership than usual in the scientific culture and are therefore even more
    likely to dispense with scientific discoveries.

    Jon wrote:

    > Let's not kid ourselves that the YEC issue is purely a scientific or
    > theological one. It has become interwoven with various social and political
    > issues as various sides use it for political purposes. (BTW, I am not arguing
    > for or against any particular social stand--although I do have my opinions!).
    > This should not be surprising as the same was true in Darwin's day, as Jim
    > Moore, John H. Brooke, and David Livingstone (among many other historians)
    > have shown.
    > We in the U.S. may be too close to the issue to see very clearly, but an
    > example from the Antipodes may help. I'm told that in Australia and New
    > Zealand there recently has been considerable support for YEC among the Maori.
    > One cannot say that this is only a political choice (as a protest against
    > the government), but surely there is a pre-existing sentiment which makes the
    > reception of YEC and the quest for its promulgation in state schools so much
    > easier for dissatisfied Maori. In the U.S. YEC can and is mixed up with
    > other issues (generally very conservative ones); thus an attack on YEC is an
    > attack on the Bible AND all the other social issues which have been woven
    > together into what is presented as the one-and-only "Christian position".
    > I'm not saying it's merely political; rather many issues are mixed together
    > and manipulated for reasons other than, or in addition to, scientific or
    > theological ones. To attack any part (such as the traditionally sensitive
    > issue of YEC) is to attack all the interwoven threads that make life
    > meaningful and interpretable for many Christians (i.e., an entire
    > "worldview"). This goes a long way to explaining why "rational" discussion
    > is so difficult. There is no such thing as a "view from nowhere"; we all
    > evaluate information and make decisions from a particular setting of place,
    > time, and circumstances. No individual decision is ever made completely
    > divorced from many other issues.
    > And at root there is an incredible theological shallowness in much of
    > American Evangelicalism today. Mark Noll wrote of the "scandal of the
    > Evangelical mind". It might also be called "the unbearable lightness of
    > Evangelicalism".
    > Karl
    > ******************************
    > Karl V. Evans
    > In a message dated 3/31/01 12:08:56 PM Mountain Standard Time,
    > writes:
    > << The other day I noted that the young earth site,, is
    > receiving a reported 10,000 visitors a day.
    > I also note that the ASA web site has had about 80,000 visitors since
    > inception.
    > Assuming the answersingenesis reported number is inflated by a factor of
    > ten, and that the ASA site has been active for 3 years, that reduces to
    > 80 /day for the ASA and 1,000/day for answersingenesis.
    > I could not find a visitor count at, but surely they must be
    > doing a comparable business.
    > I surmise we are being outgunned by a factor of at least 20 to 1. Very
    > likely a lot more.
    > At the occasion of the NTSE conference in Austin, in February 1997, ICR
    > put on a conference at a local Baptist church. There were 125 at the NTSE
    > -- the church was overflowing with a reported (this is from memory) 3,000
    > in attendance.
    > I surmise that although the YEC view has been thoroughly falsified
    > (unless one espouses the Gosse thesis), it is certainly not going away. I
    > had had visions of that happening as the Internet revolution began -- but
    > Gresham's law of $$ seems to apply even more so to rational discourse.
    > We can debate endlessly the amount of the beating we are taking; is it
    > "only" 20 to 1 or is it, perhaps, 100 to 1, but I think nobody here will
    > deny that rational discussions on origins ARE an uninteresting backwater
    > in current origins thinking in our country. We can also argue that this
    > does not matter because the academic / intellectual world is not so
    > polarized. Which may, or may not, be true.
    > Or those of us who care can try to do something about the current sorry
    > situation.
    > I don't have any magic bullets myself, but I have been discussing with
    > Jack Haas at least one fairly modest action we can take (I speak here to
    > ASA members) to work on the situation. That will be the subject of a post
    > I will make later.
    > In the meantime, comments anyone?
    > Burgy (John Burgeson)
    > >>

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