Re: The Knock on ID

From: Dick Fischer (
Date: Thu Mar 08 2001 - 15:47:22 EST

  • Next message: gordon brown: "Re: The Knock on ID"

    Skipping everybody else's logic for a moment, let's look at yours:

    Allen Roy wrote:

    >YEC logic:
    >(1) Presume that God Created the world and universe, (based on the Bible).

    Hey, no quarrel here, how and when still open to question, but the majority
    on this list will shout "amen" to that one.

    >(2) Presume the universe and earth are very young, (based on the Bible).

    Got into a little trouble here. Suggest you read chapter 8, "The Days of
    Creation: Hours or Eons?" on my web page:

    >(3) Presume that God originated life on earth, (based on the Bible:
    >Creation Week).

    Here again, the "Who" generally is not questioned by members of this
    list. How God created, the processes and time involved can be debated -
    and we do.

    >(4) Presume that the Biosphere on earth is "young", (based on 3).

    Presumptions get everybody in trouble.

    >(5) Presume that the fall of man precipitated the beginning of death among
    >mankind and the animal world [possibly excluding insects], excluding
    >plants, (based on the Bible)

    Here you have either misread the Scriptures, or haven't bothered to read
    the Scriptures. This is an excerpt from the book I referenced earlier:

    Young-earth creationists maintain the Bible prohibits death, even in the
    animal world, until Adam commits Original Sin. Genesis 3:17b and Romans
    8:22 are summoned for oblique support, but essentially this idea of no
    death in the animal kingdom before Adam hinges on their interpretation of
    about one half of one verse in Romans.

    Citing Romans 5:12, Henry Morris explains that death "entered into the
    world" only when sin came by man. And, he continues:

             ... it is as obvious as anything could be that the fossil record
    now found in the sedimentary rocks of the
             earth's crust could only have been formed sometime after man sinned.

    Is that what the Bible says? All the world's predator animals had to wait
    for sin before they could put their claws and fangs into tasty red
    meat? Can you envision black clouds of hungry buzzards egging Eve
    on? Does that sound plausible?

    Let us get some perspective. What did Paul say in Romans? "Wherefore, as
    by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin ..." (Rom.
    5:12a). Does this mean Adam's sin caused death in the animal world
    too? Did sin inflict both man and animals in the eyes of Paul?

    There are at least two reasons that death was not dealt to the animal world
    through Adam's fall. First, the fossil record is replete with over half a
    billion years worth of animal death. That predates Adam by a wide
    margin. The second reason is that animals do not belong in the same
    "world" as man, attested to by the Bible writers themselves.

    Notice that Morris did not use the entire verse. He stopped in
    mid-sentence, in fact. This is what follows the semi-colon. Romans 5:12b:
    "and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." So the Bible
    tells us, "as obvious as anything could be," who or what is affected by
    Adam's sin - men, not animals.

    Additional clarification can be found in the following verse. Romans 5:13:
    "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there
    is no law." Who was under the law, men or animals? Did animals tithe,
    fast, celebrate feasts, honor the sabbath, keep the commandments, or offer
    up unblemished sacrifices?

    In Romans 4:13: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
    was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the
    righteousness of faith." Were animals "through the righteousness of faith"
    to be joint heirs of the world along with the descendants of Abraham?

    Had Adam's sin carried a death sentence for the animal world as well, those
    concerned critters could take heart with I Corinthians 15:22: "For as in
    Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." So, if
    young-earth proponents are right, keep stocking those pet cemeteries,
    there's a new day a-comin'. The trumpet will blow, and millions of years
    worth of animal life will burst forth!

    Putting frivolity aside, Scripture forbids such a ludicrous interpretation
    of Romans 5:12. Adam's sin of disobedience caused death unto all his
    generations. In addition, the death referred to in this passage more
    probably refers to spiritual death than physical death. With continued
    access to the tree of life, Adam would have lived forever despite Original
    Sin, according to Genesis 3:22.

    >(6) Presume that the geologic record displays (for the most part) the
    >catastrophic event called Noah's Flood, (based on the Bible and scientific

    Explain why no fossil bones are found in Pre-Cambrian rock. Sedimentary,
    Pre-Cambrian rock can be found, thousands of feet in thickness in some
    locations, which records a period of time when animals did not exist. Did
    the flood filter out the animal bones?

    >(7) Presume that the life forms existing on earth prior to the Flood are
    >recorded in the geologic record, (based on 6 and scientific observation).

    Hmmmm ... 1500 years of pre-flood fossils ... Which ones are they?

    >(8) Conclude that genetic variation within created kinds is responsible
    >for all life forms evident in the geologic record and living today, (based
    >on 3, 6 and scientific observation)

    There is greater genetic distance between zebras and horses than there is
    between humans and chimps. Do zebras and horses belong to two different
    created kinds? Also, there is greater genetic distance between gophers
    living on the opposite banks of the Colorado river (separated by the Grand
    Canyon). Did God create two "kinds" of gophers, one for each side of the

    YEC logic? I think you've found another oxymoron.
    Dick Fischer - The Origins Solution -
    "The answer we should have known about 150 years ago."

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