Re: Heat Problem?

Date: Thu Aug 10 2000 - 01:26:48 EDT

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    << AR: To be sure "baqa'" [to cleave; generally to rend, break, rip or open]
    can be synonymous with "pathach" [to open wide, specifically to loosen,
    begin, plough, carve]. But the size of the cleaving, opening, rending etc.
    depends upon what is being acted upon. In Gen 7:11 we have the fountain of
    the great deep being broken. So we need to ask, What is the great deep and
    what is the great deep's fountain? The great deep is simply the oceans, the
    rest of the Bible makes that abundantly clear. In Joshua 15:9, 18:15 we find
    that "ma'yan' (fountain) is a reservoir at Nephtoah (according to Bible
    commentaries and dictionaries, Nephtoah was known for it's reservoirs). By
    substitution back into Genesis 7:11 we get: "and the reservoir of the oceans
    was cleaved, broken, rent." What is ther reservoir, the container, which
    holds the Oceans? And, how do you break it up?

    PS: To "break up" or "open" a fountain, as in Gen 7:11, is the opposite of
    "stopping up a fountain" (2Kings 3:19) which is done by filling it up with
    dirt (2 Chron 32:4; Gen 2:15). Breaking up a fountain is done by breaking up
    the hard dirt and removing it. It has to do with digging through the surface
    of the earth. It does NOT involve breaking open the _bottom_ of the reservoir
    of water. It has NOTHING to do with the bottom of the ocean, the subterranean
    crust of the earth.

      All fountains on earth were considered "fountains of the Great Deep". All
    fountains were understood to be coming up from the Tehom (the great Deep) the
    ocean which lay under the earth. Thus, Gen 49:25(24) speaks of the
    "blessings of the heaven above; blessings of the deep sea (Tehom) lying
    below." Deut 33:13 also speaks of Jehovah blessing the land of Joseph "with
    the precious dew of the heavens and with the deep sea (Tehom) lying below."
    How can "the deep sea lying below" be a blessing? By being the source of the
    fountains that give water for irrigation and thus agricultural blessing. Gen
    7:11 is about these _earthly_ fountains. It has nothing to do with the ocean

      As I said before, the Flood is caused by simply opening up all of the
    earth's fountains at once (Gen 7:11) including those which had run dry or
    been stopped up or sealed (Isa 41:17,18; Hos 13:15; Gen 26:15; 2 Kgs 3:19;
    Cant 4:12).
    <<AR: Am I trying to force my ideas on the text?

    PS: Yes.

    <<AR: No. I am merely exploring what the Bible is actually saying.

    PS: If this is what the Bible is actually saying, why is it that the ancient
    Jews did not understand it that way? Your interpretation is at least as
    modern as the local Flood theory and just as far if not more from the
    biblical text.
    << PS: Given that the earth in Scripture is floating on the Tehom ocean (Ps
    24:2; 136:6: and see my paper "The geographical meaning of 'earth' and 'seas'
    in Gen 1:10" in the Westminster Theological Journal 59 (1997) 231-55.), this
    is equivalent to scuttling a boat.
    << AR: As you no doubt know. The Hebrew preposition "'al" which is used both
    in Ps 24:2 and 136:6 means "above, over, upon and against." This means that
    Ps 24:2 could just as correctly read "For he founded it above the seas and
    established it above the waters." Which would correspond well with 136:6's,
    "Who spread out the earth above the waters," (as it says in the KJV). In
    this sense, the relationship between earth (land) and waters (oceans) is one
    of relative elevation rather than of superposition. For instance is Everest
    above Anapurna or is Everest upon Anapurna? This would indicate that the
    ancients were not ignorant cavemen, but intelligent beings able to make
    cognizant observations.

    PS: Ps 24:2 could NOT just as correctly read "For he founded it above the
    seas and established it above the waters." Within its historical context (as
    seen above with regard to fountains) it certainly meant it was founded
    directly upon the seas (upon the Tehom), not above the seas in the sense of
    relative elevation. It is the ocean "below" the earth (Gen 49:25; Deut 33:13)
    that is the source of agricultural blessing, not the salt water ocean beside
    the earth with its relatively low elevation. In addition, in the other OT
    verses where "found" (yasad) is used with the preposition 'al (Cant 5:15; Ps
    104:5; Amos 9:6) the meaning "upon" is demanded by the context. Further, the
    very nature of "founding" demands that the thing founded rest _upon_ the
    foundation. Ps 24:2 is saying that God "founded," that is, firmly placed the
    earth upon the seas, the seas being a foundational base--as everyone in the
    ancient Near East believed. There is no biblical evidence that the Hebrews
    were better educated scientifically than their neighbors. The preposition 'al
    in Ps 24:2 should thus be translated "upon" as the KJV, ERV, ASV, NASV, RSV,
    NEB, Berkeley, Amplified, Moffat, Jerusalem, and NIV all testify.

     << PS: The Church has historically interpreted Psalm 104:6-9 as being about
       creation, not the Flood. And, most people understand that the text is
       the waters rose, not the mountains. See my paper, "Creation Science takes
       Psalm 104:6-9 out of Context" PSCF 51:3 (1999) 170-174.
     << AR: To be sure Psalm 104 does have many parallels with the creation
    account in Genesis 1. However, verse 9, ("You set a boundary they cannot
    cross; never again will they cover the earth") is a reference to something
    which God said to Noah in Gen 8:2, "Never again will I curse the ground
    because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from
    childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have
    done." So it appears that PS 104 combines the events of Creation and the
    Flood. This description of the mountains and valleys likely applies to both
    day 4 and to the Flood event.

    PS: Psalm 104:9, ("You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will
    they cover the earth") is NOT a reference to something which God said to Noah
    in Gen 8:2. Ps 104:2-5 place verses 6-9 in a context of creation. And, the
    action of Ps 104:9, "setting a boundary," fits the context of the first three
    days of Genesis very well. On day one in Genesis, light is separated from
    darkness: God puts a boundary between them. On day two the waters above are
    separated from the waters below: God puts a boundary between them. On day
    three, the waters below are gathered into one place, and separated from the
    dry land. God puts a boundary between them (which is the sand of the
    seashore according to Jer 5:22). Psalm 104:6-9 with its "setting a boundary"
    thus fits perfectly into the context of creation.
      Prov 8:29 and Job 38:4-11are parallel to Ps 104:9. Both of these passages
    speak of God setting a boundary for the sea just as Ps 104:9 does, and they
    speak of the foundation of the earth just as Ps 104:5 does. Their context is
    creation, and they thus confirm that Ps 104:9 is a reference to creation, not
    to Noah's flood.
      Finally, it is quite clear from the way the waters are described in Psalm
    104:7 that the 104:9 is not referring to the Flood's waters. That is, in Ps
    104:7 the waters are described as rebuked by God in such a way that they
    "fled"..."hastened away", in the sense of being in a hurry or alarm. The
    picture is one of waters rapidly running off, just as would have occurred in
    Gen 1:9, 10 as the newly created earth emerged from below as a submarine
    rising to the surface. In Gen 8:3, in contrast, the removal of the waters
    of Noah's flood are described as subsiding very, very slowly, taking some
    seven and one-half months to get to the place where it was dry enough for
    Noah to get off the ark. The picture of waters fleeing in panic which is
    given in Ps 104:7 is just the opposite of the interminably slow lowering of
    the waters by draining and evaporation that is given in Gen 8:3. Psalm 104:9,
    therefore, is not a reference to Gen 8:2.

      The historic interpretation of the Church that Psalm 104:9 is about
    creation, not the Flood, is thus very well founded.

    << PS: You have taken the Bible out of its ancient Near Eastern context and
    forced modern views upon it. I hope for better things both for you and
     << AR: I have not taken the Bible out if its context. I feel that many try
    to force the Bible into the mold of what they think ignorant ancients
    PS: The words in the Bible mean what they meant to the people of that time.
    You cannot remove them from their historical context and give them new
    meanings without effectually rewriting the Bible. Further, you have not left
    the Bible in even its biblical context. You have taken the fountains of the
    Deep out of their biblical context wherein they are fountains on the surface
    of the earth. In Psalm 24:2, you took the preposition 'al away from its
    connection with the word "found." You took Psalm 104:9 out of its context of
    creation, separated it from its parallels in Prov 8:29 and Job 38:4-11, and
    associated it with Noah's flood---even though the removal of the Flood waters
    (Gen 8:3) is just the opposite of the description given in the Psalm 104:7.

    You are imposing an extra-biblical theory upon the Bible at the expense of
    Scripture. The Bible says nothing, absolutely nothing, about the Flood being
    caused by meteorites, asteroids, earthquakes, tsunami's, volcanic eruptions
    or the collapse of a canopy. These have all been manufactured by the
    imagination to support the theory of a flood that covered a spherical earth,
    an earth the OT knows nothing of. The Bible knows nothing of any of these
    things, and they are supported only by taking the words of the Bible out of
    their historical and biblical context and redefining them at will to support
    the theory.

    I still wish better things both for you and Scripture.


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