At 11:12 PM 11/18/98 -0600, Keith B Miller wrote:
>>I do not believe I am doing anything different from what Thomas did. And I
>>think Thomas was the most rational fo the disciples.
>But, Jesus specifically commended, not Thomas, but those who do not see but
>yet believe. This would seem to completely turn the tables on your
>argument above. While we can all identify with Thomas in some ways, Jesus
>calls us to a level of faith and trust that does not demand physical
If my argument was table-turned, then why did John, writing years after the
Thomas disgrace, take such pains to talk about observational evidence? (I
emphasize the observational words)
1 John 1:1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have
HEARD, which we have SEEN with our eyes, which we have LOOKED UPON, and our
hands have HANDLED, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have SEEN it, and bear witness, and
show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was
MANIFESTED unto us;)
3 That which we have SEEN and HEARD declare we unto you, that ye also may
have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and
with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
And far from saying "paying attention to observational evidence will reduce
your joy and blessings" John in verse 4 clearly says he wrote this to make
our joy full. I guess John hadn't heard of Thomas' disgraceful behavior.
Paul also falls into the Thomas Trap
1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day
according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was SEEN of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was SEEN of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom
the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was SEEN of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was SEEN of me also, as of one born out of due time.
The other disciples had seen prior to Thomas' failure.
Luke 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping
down, he BEHELD the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed,
wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
John 20:3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and
came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and LOOKING IN, SAW the linen clothes lying; yet
went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and
SEETH the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen
clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the
sepulchre, and he SAW, and believed.
It is clear to me that the disciples did base their belief system on what
had been observed. if this is not the case, why didn't Peter and John stay
put, eat their dinner and talk politics, rather than run to the sepulchre?
They ran because THEY WANTED OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE AND WERE NOT CONTENT TO
BELIEVE AND NOT SEE. They did the same as Thomas!!!!!!
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