Redrawing Lines Without Viagra

Dick Fischer (
Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:53:52 -0400

Hi Glenn, you wrote:

>Dick Fischer wrote:

>>So we all draw our lines and defend our positions.=A0 You do it.=A0 And
>>I do it.=A0 But if we are honest, somehow we need to account for the data.=A0

>Of course we do. So where is the evidence, the geological evidence of a
>Mesopotamian flood?

I don't know whether the Mesopotamian flood was similar in nature=20 to
the flood of 1993 which inundated the upper midwest for over 3 months,
or if it was the result of a geological event.  The consensus date for
the flood layers found at Kish, Shuruppak, Uruk (biblical Erech),
Lagash, and the early layer at Ur are around 2900 BC.

History books use 2900 BC as the start of the Early Dynastic period beginning with the post-flood rulers at Kish.

As I stated in my book, if we use the Septuagint genealogies (my choice),
and set the date of the Exodus to coincide with the reign of Raamses II, preferred by many Old Testament scholars today, that would yield a date
of 2978 BC for the flood.  If the Exodus took place in the reign of Amenhotep II, the biblical date for the flood would be 150 years sooner,
or around 3128 BC.

This time frame may (I repeat may) coincide with either volcanic action
or a comet or a meteorite impact.  I include here without comment just
a few references that point in that direction.

W. Bruce Masse is an environmental archaeologist with the U.S. Air Force
and is affiliate graduate faculty at the University of Hawaii.  In a
paper he presented at a recent SIS conference he said:

"Planetary scientists and astrophysicists recently have begun to model
the potential hazards on Earth from impact by asteroids and comets. These models suggest that 2030 at least locally catastrophic impacts likely occurred in various portions of the world during the past 6,000 years, during which time occurred the major developments of modern human civilization. This paper uses these cosmic impact models, coupled with
data from archaeology, paleoenvironmental studies, and the systematic analysis of cosmogonic mythology and other literary traditions, in order
to identify previously unknown catastrophic Bronze Age cosmic catastrophes, the most significant being a globally catastrophic oceanic comet impact estimated at between 105 and 106 megatons that occurred in 2807 BCE."

Abrupt change in sedimentation rate of Lake Van in Turkey indicative of rapid climatic fluctuation at (varve) dates of 5200 BP in Palaeo, 122
(1996) p 107)

Dead Sea levels peaking at 300 ft. above present levels at 5.0 and
8.0K BP. Frumkin et al, The Holocene, 1 3 191200 (1991).

Greenland Dye 3 oxygen isotope ratio. Minimum value between 2000
and 8000 cal yrs BP occurs just before 5.0K yrs BP. Data from National
Snow and Ice Data Center. A large acid peak at 3150 BC is suggestive
of a volcanic event. Fisher et al, The Holocene 5, 1, 19, (1995).

Sulfate in GISP2 ice core; curve is a low tension robust spline of
sulfate concentrations with average about 30 ppb. The cause of the
150 year peak at 5.2K yrs BP is not known, but the authors suggest
the possibility of an anomalous nearby temporary body of open water (polynya) which generated marine biogenic sulfate. Zielinski, GA et al,
in Nature, 264 948 (1994).

Atmospheric methane from GRIP ice core with lowest value 580 ppbv=20 at
5.2K yrs. BP followed by rapid increase of 40 ppbv over 200 years;
variously attributed to clathrate or permafrost outgassing, decrease
in tropospheric oxidation, or abrupt increase in low latitude wetlands. Blunier, T, et al, in Nature, 374 47 (1995).

Proxy paleoclimatic data from sediment cores in the Santa Barbara basin
off the coast of California, sediment bioturbidity and snail form, indicating a discontinuity, possibly abrupt cooling, at 5.2k yrs BP. 
Ref: Kennett, J P and Ingram, B L, "A 20,000 yr record of ocean
circulation and climate change from the Santa Barbara basin" in
Nature v 377 p 510 12 Oct 95.

But your assumption, that all the original names were recorded in the >original documents is just that an assumption.=A0

No, the names, places, and events line up with the recorded history of Southern Mesopotamia.

>Nowhere does the Bible itself say that "These are the
>complete and total list of all descendants of Adam and none are left out".

Nor does it say, "These patriarchs are a representative sampling of
thousands of descendants who were too numerous to mention."  There are
a lot of things the Bible doesn't say.

>Assuming what you say is true that the Flood was in 3000 BC (Origins
>Solution p. 329), then there is a real problem with your chronology. David
>lived about 1000 B.C.=A0 In Luke 3 there are 42 names between Jesus and
>David.=A0 This is an average of 23 years per generation. Given that in
>pre-industrial times, the average lifespan was about 30 years, this is
>probably not too far wrong although I would say it is slightly too high for
>the average generation. If Abraham lived at 1800 B.C. there are only 13
>names between David and Abe giving an average 61 year generation time.

The first three patriarchs take up most of that time.  Abraham lived
175 years and begat Isaac at 100 (Gen. 21:5).  And Isaac was 60 at the
birth of Jacob (Gen. 25:26).  Judah was Jacob's forth and last son by
Leah.  "Then she stopped bearing" (Gen. 29:33).  We don't know how old
he was at the birth of Judah, but he "sojourned" for 130 years (Gen.47:9).

>Are you willing to say here and now that post flood Sumerians lived
>on average more than 100 years and gave birth to their children when the
>old geezers were 100 years of age?

No.  The Sumerians are another culture altogether.  They spoke an
unrelated language, and appeared to be racially distinct from the
Accadians, who came from Accad (Gen. 10:10), and spoke a language
precursor to Hebrew.

>>So if the first ten patriarchs are literal father and son relationships
>>why should the next ten be any different?=A0

>Because this requires that the 100-year-old geezers had the sexual prowess
>of oxen and the enthusiasm of bonobos.

Glenn, I really don't know how to respond to that one.

>You say 20 generations between Adam and Abe.=A0 Fine. 3000/20=3D150 years.=A0 So
>are you suggesting that the average generational time in 7000 BC was 150
>years? Why are there no skeletons showing that extreme age at that time in

I don't think we have dug up any Accadians yet.  Woolley found his
skeletons in Sumerian Ur.  We do have a little historical data though.
Gilgamesh sought out Utnapishtim (Noah's parallel) because he was reputed
to be immortal and survived the flood.  His name means "He who found long life."

From the Lagash King list, Jacobsen noted that the post-flood kings
of Lagash (Semites probably) not only lived extraordinarily long,
they also lived extraordinarily "slowly."

In those days a child spent a hundred years
In diapers (lit. "in <bits> of the wash")
After he had grown up he spent a hundred years
Without being given any task (to perform)
He was small, he was dull witted
His mother watched over him.

>Whatever you want to say, the genealogies are not complete, even the more
>recent ones are not complete.

Maybe there is just enough ambiguity in the Scriptures to give us
something to talk about.  What do you think?

Dick Fischer, The Origins Solution -
"The answer we should have known about 150 years ago."