Re: > Re: Defining GOG & EOG

Eduardo G. Moros (
Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:12:17 -0600

The term "total depravity", like many other terms we use or don't use daily,
does not mean the same in common usage as in theological usage.
Theologically, the reformation refers to "total depravity" as the human
condition before regeneration which characterizes mankind - unregenerate
mankind that can not even start obeying the first of the 10 commandments.
Humans are DEAD, in enmity with God and are objects of God's wrath. The
solution to this hopeless condition is Christ.

I must go back and say that human beings "suppress" the truth - natural
revelation. It's a willful action. I know that this action is rooted in
their nature, but it is an action nevertheless. When humans experience a
"new" nature in Christ then they are able to "repent" from the action of
suppressing the truth.

George Murphy wrote:
> Glenn Morton wrote:
> >
> > At 02:03 PM 12/18/97 -0600, George Andrews wrote:
> >
> > >I do not see why Eduardo and you accuse me of being in "direct opposition to
> > >Romans 1" when it is here that Paul instructs us of mankind's total depravity
> > >with its accompanying tendency toward idolatry. Hence, unbelievers worship the
> > >creation and only believers see the God of nature. It appears to me that
> > you see
> > >the emphasis of Rom. 1 as teaching a natural revelation of God for all to see.
> > >Instead, its emphasis plainly reveals man's inexcusable guilt before God. The
> > >thrust of Paul's argument in Romans is that mankind has SUPPRESSED the truth of
> > >God that HAS BEEN revealed through nature because of their "wickedness."
> >
> > Interesting. I have never read that passage that way. I have always viewed
> > Romans 1:20 as an explanation of 1:19
> >
> > Romans 1:19 (NIV) since what may be known about God is plain to them,
> > because God has made it plain to them.
> >
> > Romans 1:20 (NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible
> > qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being
> > understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
> >
> > if 20 is an explanation of 19 then the creation is what has been made plain
> > to them.
> It is "plain" but unbelievers don't see it! That is precisely
> what Paul says. Any attempt to get back to some primordial condition of
> humans prior to Sin & then to find God in nature ignores the reality
> of Sin, & results in the consequences Paul describes: Not atheism but
> idolatry, worshipping the Philosopher God or the Clockmaker God or the
> Intelligent Designer or something of the sort - a step above birds &
> reptiles, but not the real God!
> Those who believe in the God revealed to Israel & in Christ can
> see that God at work in nature, but that "sight" depends on faith.
> Natural theology must be part of Christian theology, not something
> independent of it.
> I'm not happy with the term "total depravity", for even sinners
> are in essence good creatures of God. But aside from that, george A is
> on the mark here.
> George L. Murphy