Re: Limits of Kinds (was Fall of evolved man)

Glenn Morton (
Fri, 07 Nov 1997 05:58:04 -0600

Hi Karen,

At 10:50 PM 11/6/97 -0600, Karen G. Jensen wrote:

>The limits show up when you get to the extremes of the available genetic
>capabailty of the kind. For example, in dog breeding -- say breeding
>collies with longer and longer noses, there comes a point where longer
>isn't better, because circulation problems etc. develop, and the dog has
>trouble breathing. Beyond that, longer is not only not better, it is not
>Dog variation is indeed astounding, but not unlimited. You cannot get a
>dog the size of a fly, for example (for many reasons, structural and
>otherwise), or the shape of a stingray, etc. A dog has dog structures for
>dog purposes...operating within "dog parameters" (!)

Lets try this in another fashion. Maybe there are limits not to the extent
of change but to the rate of change. Maybe only so much change can occur in
a short time. This would mean that creationists are mistaking a limit to
change with the inability to change extremely rapidly.

The data supporting this idea comes from paleontology. We don't have to go
very far back into the past before we find NO living animals. Here are the
species living in each of the past. Living forms were all different in the
past. They changed.

Recent 4631(including species which went extinct in historical times)
Pleistocene 282
Pliocene 67
Miocene 2

The two living species found in the Miocene are the carnivore Callorhinus
ursinus and the bat, Rhinolophus ferrum-equinum.

So while we may bump into limits over a 1000 year period, it might not be
there if given more time.

The number of extinct species found in the various epochs of the Tertiary are:

Pleistocene 786
Pliocene 1119
Miocene 2988
Oligocene 1282
Eocene 1819
Paleocene 604

The average species is only found in one of these epochs. This implies that
the fauna almost entirely turns over with the passing of each epoch. This
is another difficulty for the global flood--explaining why different forms
are deposited in the various layers, inspite of the fact that most ecozones are
represented in each epoch.

On the genus level the numbers of members of extant mammalian genera in the
various geological epochs is:

Triassic there are 4 genera--none with living members
Jurassic 43 genera-none with living members
Cretaceous 36 genera-none with living members
Paleocene 213 genera-none with living members
Eocene 569 genera- 3 with living members
Oligocene 494 genera 11 with living members
Miocene 749 genera 57 with living members
Pliocene 762 genera 133 with living members
Pleistocene 830 genera 417 with living members

Doesn't this mean that life has changed? I see only two possibilities.
Evolution or progressive creation that mimics the pattern of evolution


Foundation, Fall and Flood