>On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Glenn Morton wrote:
>> >"Self organization in complex systems which consist of large numbers of
>> >coupled chemical together have been demonstrated primarily in computer
>> >simulations. Again, the complexity or information that can be produced in
>> >an actual system depends on logistically arranging the many chemical
>> >reactions which take place in a very complicated way so that the required
>> >coupling can occur. While this is not a problem in the computer, it would
>> >be a "nightmare" in a real system of 1,000,000 chemical reactions.
>> What does Walter think happens in a living cell?
>This is exactly "the question". Living cell can organize all complicated
>reactions into a concerted whole exactly because of its biological
>based on informational transfer and coupled reactions. The question is how
>does the first cell get there BEFORE all this informational transfer and
>coupled reactions can be regulated within a biological whole. Natural
>Selection has NOTHING to offer before there is a self regulating unit as a
>living cell which can also respond to the environmental cue, i.e. the lac
>operon in E. coli. Self organization does not give selectivity as to the
>D-sugars and the L amino acids and the 3'-5'phosphodiester bonds in
>nucleci acids. The selectivity is mediated by enzymatic reaction, which
>can be also classified as one of those irreducible complexities.
Unless you are willing to believe in life in outer space, there is a mechanism
(unknown to us at this moment) which is quite capable of producing non-racemic
amino acids. Here is data from the Murchison meteorite in which non-racemic
amino acids were extracted.
amino acid d/l ratio in Murchison meteorite
GLU ASP PRO LEU ALA
H2O .322 .202 .342 .166 .682
H2O .30 .30 .30 nd .60
HCl .176 .126 .105 .029 .307
~Michael H. Engel and Bartholomew Nagy, "Distribution and
Enantiomeric Composition of Amino Acids in the Murchison
Meteorite", Nature , 296, April 29, 1982, p. 838.
Some of these results show that something in space was able to produce 70-90%
L amino acids. This concept that Christians propagate that nature can't
produce anything but racemic forms is flawed. I don't know the mechanism but
there is one. (See also Engel, Macko and Silfer, "Carbon Isotope Composition
of Individual amino acids in the Murchison Meteorite," Nature 348, Nov. 1.
1990, pp 47-48)
As to the original statement above that:
> >Again, the complexity or information that can be produced in
> >an actual system depends on logistically arranging the many chemical
> >reactions which take place in a very complicated way so that the required
> >coupling can occur. While this is not a problem in the computer, it would
> >be a "nightmare" in a real system of 1,000,000 chemical reactions.
I think we are talking about two different situations here. You understood
the above quote to apply to the origin of the cell; I see the same problem
with the operation of the cell. I heard one person describe the interior of a
cell as a bag full of chemicals which is constantly being shaken. The
chemicals inside cytoplasm are not "arranged" in an orderly fashion inside the
cell and yet the cell still survives. The cell is a "nightmare" real system
with lots of chemical reactions and feedback loops yet it operates.
I will agree that no one has proven the origin of the cell, but once you have
a reproductive unit like the cell, self-organization is a powerful law of
nature which can be seen in lots of iterative systems with feed-back loops.
Foundation,Fall and Flood